Why is God the "most reasonable answer to existence"

my brother, it's very very clear to me that you know God all to well, i think that you might have simply labeled him "I Am", which in itself is not wrong remotely... the God being spoke of earlier. the consciousness that has been introduced into this thread, this "moleculsar inteligence built into the fabric of the universe", well, it is also very clear to me that you too have bathed in this stream, which if i might say, is a blessing that God does bless us with when we grow to love him. NOW, when i said him right there, this is where our argument goes astray, because our definitions of such a thing are different, as well as how we are interpreting eachother's definition. I think you and i both, as well as kharakov and many others, all believe that the word "God" in this thread is becoming more and more "What simply IS". no? i agree with you WHOLEHEARTEDLY that our interpretation of such a thing can NEVER escape being that present time's perspective, of ANYTHING really, but i think with God, just like with your life journey, the definition is always growing. Is God the creator? i dont know, to even begin to fathom the possibility, rest assured it's influenced by SOO much, and could be a zillllion other things. Is God omnipresent, well i think it's knowledge is. Is God living? ~well, that all is determined by your definition of God. Is God a man, we're we created in his image, ~that is just the same as calling him the creator =) we'll never know, but his presence, i feel it more then i feel anything, and again, this feeling is your "I Am". =) much love brother

 

John Berger, in "Ways of Seeing", said 'To look is an act of choice.'

 

Does God operate through reasoning?

 

Punishing a human's soul for ALL ETERNITY IN THE depths OF A FLAMING LAKE OF FIREY HELL AMONGST WORMS THAT NEVER DIE hardly seems reasonable punishment for a miniscule portion of time spent on earth living in sin....But he does it anyways....Seem reasonable to u??? (But then again, that's the biblical god....Which one are we talking about? haha)

 

ultimately, i think God does operate through the reasoning we let ourselves sit on... When we let an assumption settled down as reality, then our 'reasoning' has created this 'objective truth'. I think that God simply is THE objective reality, which like soaringeagle said, is quite impossible for any human to obtain. I also think that God resides for each and every individual in their own interpretation of Him/It, and our own subjective connection we established with him... now, don't forget that we should never stabilize any present perception, because we inhibit it from growing! And i don't truly want to emphasize any aggressive or assertive thinking about God, because I have learned that it's better to just free your mind of such stuff... when you go down one train of thought, the reality of that specific thought puts up barriers to a zillion other realities, and you're blinding yourself from so much. I just let the reasoning of God flow through me when it needs to, and it always does when it does. The pouring rain =) i dont hold onto anything too strongly, but chew and cherish everything. if you continue to interpret, you continue to grow. take it easy, and enjoy God's gift to us all. If you want to change the word 'God' to 'Nature', not a thing wrong with that =)

 

I don't know much about the Bible, but i have put some thought into Hell and all that suffering afterlife... i'll share what i think:
What is your thought? what isss your thought? Descarte introduced the mind body problem... that, if my scences decive me, and that i'm not always my body, and i am my mind, what's going on? where does our thought connect to our body. i do NOT want to make the assertion that the 2 ARE disconnected, but, again, what is our thought? now... the afterlife.. for ANYone to tell you that one specific thing is to happen, i'd reallllllly interpret with a cautous eye, but follow my thought for a second... If there were some sort of afterlife, lets label is X, what would be our vessel through it... would we need a vessel? can we concieve what matter would look like, what shape we'd take, or is it possible we'd simply be our thought amoungst the cosmos? or, would we simple just NOT BE (after death, TURN OFF, kinda deal). if you choose to think that this mystical, amazing thought process we have come to know as ourselves lives on during X, regardless how, imagine continueing to think with all the memories and thoughts taken from this life... imagine taking all the sorrow you accumulated, having to think of all you wronged, imagine thinking of all the unsettled wrong, living with that... i think that's hell.... now, i think if you've came to terms with your life, or even better yet, LIVED A GOOD, riteous one, then you're spirit and soul (thought) will live on a beautiful eternity. whateverrr happens during that eternity, wherever it is, i dont know... but i think it boils down to, if you're lives a good life, with a light, free spirit, or your spirit is disstressed and burdened/unhappy. this prepares us for a good conversation on reincarnation =P but i wont go there =) i hope my perspective was useful =) now, don't take it for any TRUTH! it's just one stab at it =) make connections and grow my brother.

 

What you say applies to our reasoning, our thinking. But that's not what I was trying to get at. It's not a question of us having a fixed concept of God I mean, but 'the mind of God' - if, that is, God is limited to 'mind'.
What I'm suggesting is that rationality and human reasoning are the modus operandi of human consciousness - but the Divine consciousness works through a higher faculty of knowledge - above the reach of human reasoning. A higher mode of knowledge.
Humans = rational
God = supra-rational
No matter how much we think about God or construct ideas about what is or is not God, we will never actually experience the Divine reality through reasoning because that experience is not an idea, a set of ideas or a 'final idea'.
That's why so many spiritual teachers emphasize the need to quiet the mind, still the thinking process - to allow reality to manifest directly, rather than just being seen through a screen of linguistic symbols as is the case in ordinary consciousness.

 

Always does sometimes.

 

We will know what God intends us to know. God is teaching us what God is through rational means right now, as we speak. (of course, the meaning of my statement depends on what the meaning of is is)

Linguistic symbols are scaffolding for understanding, the 2X4's that hold up the house. (And 2X12's and 6's etc... don't forget the nails, drywall, and trim either.... especially the trim, you put that on last to make the house pretty....)

Every once in a while, when you are building a house, it's nice to stop working on it and look at how it's coming along...

 

I think nature in some form always existed without any "gods" or "God". Simply put, Einstein's E=MC2 discovery, proves the energy = matter and they coexist as essentially one entity.

We also know that matter cannot be created or destroyed, but can only change form. Thus, matter / nature itself is the essence of existence and always existed.

I think the institution of a foreign concept such as "god" (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent) is completely UNREASONABLE and ILLOGICAL and have a hard time wondering how people can accept such a foreign concept and ignore what we already know about matter and energy.

Let's move on...I say...discover more about matter and energy and stop wasting time and lives and creating wars over invisible men in the sky and all that tripe.

 

oh goodness, yes yes, i agree completelyyyy. i think i was trying to suggest that when i wrote "because I have learned that it's better to just free your mind of such stuff... when you go down one train of thought, the reality of that specific thought puts up barriers to a zillion other realities, and you're blinding yourself from so much. I just let the reasoning of God flow through me when it needs to, and it always does when it does. The pouring rain =) i dont hold onto anything too strongly, but chew and cherish everything." you painted it out so much better then i though =)

 

You nailed it. Especially, the comforting part. Most believers need a belief in a higher power, an afterlife of some sort, because they fear the unknown and possibility of there being absolutely nothing after death.

 

God is not the most reasonable answer for this simple reason. If you postulate a complex entity like a god in order to explain the existence of a complex universe, then you are still left with the task of explaining the existence of that god. Explaining how god came to be is at least equally perplexing as explaining how the universe came to be. In reality god is not an explanation, it is trading one mystery for another and pretending the mystery is solved.

 

I agree.

 

because life in general is elements in the universe put together and it sprouts or grows an organism. we are a very smart organism to have gotten to this point and we are still learning. so it's natural for us humans to wonder who created us or who gave us our life. the planet is filled with strange anomalies and yet everything seems to coexist in tune, there's a place for everything, everything in it's place. how could it be random? something much smarter, an alien or jesus had to have given us everything. a purpose to it all? do you understand what i'm getting at here?

 

The possibilities are endless. I could be a brain in a jar in some alien's laboratory, or a "Matrix style" simulation on the computer run by a robot programmed by some mad scientist from the future who died a gazillion years ago. People may believe in God because it strikes them as the most plausible explanation for the integrated complexity of the universe. Multiverses are another possiblity, but there's no more evidence for them than God. I intuitively find God to be more plausible, probably because it's analogous to things that are more familiar to me in explaining phenomena that seem well-ordered. It's all metaphysics anyway, and none of it makes much sense. People are pattern seeking and agency perceiving animals, so I'm doin' what comes naturally. Now what is God? A Higher Power, the Ground of Being "in which we live and move and have our being". Clear? (I'm being facietious).

The choices are: (1) we are a fluke, the product of blind evolutionary forces that just somehow happened to have developed the capacity to think about this stuff and communicate it, and if there were no intelligent life in the universe, so what ; (2) there actually is some point to it all besides the blind operation of the laws of physics. What seems more plausible? Instead of thinking about this in left-brain analytical syllogistic terms, just pause, think about yourself, your experiences, and others and ask what seems plausible: fluke, brain in jar, virtual reality simulation, or somebody who's there for a purpose. Yesterday, in the WalMart parking lot I encountered an able bodied, scruffy man with his scruffy wife and kids holding a sign with the usually plea for monetary help. Do I take the bait or not? The guy could be a lazy scammer, and I could use the money myself. In fact, I was out of money earlier that day, but a stranger gave me some and told me to pay it back by passing it on, so I did (some of it). Why? Does it matter? It's one of those habits that's part of my idea of Christianity, and Jesus was on my mind. How do atheists handle those kinds of things. And why?

I personally find God to be "the most reasonable answer to existence". I don't necessarily think that's the same as the secret to the origins of the universe, which is not a problem of immediate concern to me. I look at God and Jesus as educated bets that help me get on with life in a way I find meaningful, whether it is or not. When it comes to Christianity, I'm more concerned with orthopraxy than orthodoxy--ie., I view it as organized altruism, rather than believing unbelievable doctrines.

 

How do you know God is complex? I agree, God doesn't get us very far as an explanation, but it's a useful metaphor in organizing our ideas of ultimate meaning and values. That's why I think (S)he's worth betting on.

 

Others, like me, are more afraid of the possibility there might be absolutely nothing before death.

 

Why does ultimate nothingness make you afraid?

 

Because meaninglessness is boring.