Ratio of kids/elderly/disabled to working adults on a commune

Discussion in 'Communal Living' started by pushkin, May 12, 2012.

  1. pushkin

    pushkin Guest

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    I know of some American communes that limit the number of children allowed in as members (and require permission for pregnancies, etc.), because of concerns with balancing non-working members vs. working members.

    Why is this? Children seem inexpensive to maintain on a commune. Twin Oaks for example uses public health care available for low-income people, so the medical cost doesn't seem a big part of the issue. Is it the cost of clothes, toys, etc.? Is it the labor hours diverted to child care and homeschooling (in income-sharing arrangements)? I am a father of two, and really the costs of the kids are easiest to bear spread out over many kids, for example my family has passed around baby furniture.

    The permission-for-pregnancy rule strikes me quickly as a place that I wouldn't want to have a pregnancy at, because it seems (first impression) that they don't really want it. (I'm male, so not my pregnancy).

    Also, do any communes especially welcome people with physical disabilities? Or strive to have an age-balanced community, with some elderly and retired folks who pull a lower labor quota?

    Are communities stretched thin enough that the add'l burden of the above can't be afforded?

    thanks!
     
  2. Aerianne

    Aerianne Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    I don't know the answer but I would think so older, less physically able, people would be a good source for caring for the children.
     
  3. oldwolf

    oldwolf Waysharing-not moderating Super Moderator

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    T'is a sad sad world we live in master jack....ain't no lie just a matter of fact

    and the only way we can change it
    Is to live our Truth...and damn the consequences
    sometimes we must truly realize that we sacrifice our very life by what we live

    Best make it something we deem 'worth it'


     
  4. Rutz

    Rutz The Farming Communist

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    I've lived at some places with maybe about 50 members, including children, elderly, disabled, etc., and only maybe half a dozen people doing the real work to support the community.
    They didn't make a conscious effort to include the elderly and disabled to have some kind of balance or anything, that's just the way it worked out. People come in with problems, people in the community grow old, stuff like that. Married couples were actually encouraged to have many children. Some families had eight or more. Though you did need permission from the leadership to get married (or, really, even talk to a single person of the opposite sex), which was pretty odd and frustrating.

    By the way, nice to see you around, Oldwolf. I've been posting in the Communal Living forum since '04-'05 under different names, and you've always had good input for people.
     
  5. pushkin

    pushkin Guest

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    Thanks for your reply Rutz.

    A 6-to-50 ratio working/non-working people doesn't seem manageable. How did it work out at the commune you stayed at? How many of the 50 were children? Were children given chores to help with things? Were the elderly/disabled able to help with some things, put some labor in?

    I was glad oldwolf replied too, I have read many of his posts in older threads and learned from them. Unfortunately, I was very confused by what he wrote.
     
  6. old_crone

    old_crone Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    To often in communities a small group have a vision and dream they are willing to give their lives to. Others just flock around wanting somewhere to land. When there is no respect, integrity, and a willingness to be part of the group; separation and challenges grow. The issue with children comes from those who have children and expect others to care for them. This is not even about discipline and boundaries as much as the safety issues for all. The issue with the elderly and disabled becomes a burden when those committed to the community must give up their own lives and dreams to be 24/7 care givers. These concerns should be addressed in the community bylaws and agreed on before signing on. A community will be only as strong as its weakest individuals intent just as it only takes an ant to bring down a forest.

    To often people want a free ride and see community as that. Community becomes family and if everyone is pulling in different directions the community will fail or never get off the ground. Intimate Relationships can be wonderful and also a breeding ground for jealousy possessiveness, abuse, disease, and so on. Without commitment and working for the greater good of all a cult following can happen. When people do not agree on what Community means the original vision and dream can get lost. Everything comes back to Commitment, Integrity, Respect, and Lots of Hard Work.
     
  7. Rutz

    Rutz The Farming Communist

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    About half the population was children. The elderly taught school, sewed, stuff like that. It was actually pretty easy to support everyone with a small crew.
    At one back in '06, we ran a landscaping business with some pretty big contracts.
    Same place in '08, we had a pretty successful tea company. I was the only person working on the production line, and my work could bring in $50k a month as long as I had somebody answering the phone to take orders.
    Different place in '10, we ran a soap factory. Took contracts to produce organic soaps and cosmetics and things. Only took two people on the blending side, two on the packaging side, somebody to answer the phone and somebody in the lab to perfect the recipes.

    So it really doesn't take much, you just need to think up a good business model, preferably something you can sell online so you don't have to travel away from your families to get to construction sites and such.
     
  8. Rutz

    Rutz The Farming Communist

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    Old Crone brings up a very good point. The problem doesn't tend to be people who want to help help but are limited by the age or condition. The problem is usually people who come in with no interest in helping, just looking for a free ride.
    These people inevitably show up in droves once you get your place going, and they aggravate me to no end. You can tell who they are straight off, the people with a passion for moving their mouths far more than they move their hands. And if they stick around long enough, they eventually make it into the leadership. Then your whole community has gone down the drain. Watch out for those charismatic types who talk big, but then dissapear when the time for working begins.
     
  9. pushkin

    pushkin Guest

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    Thanks for the input! I'd like to ask for some clarifications / make comments. A brief description of our project:

    We have two hundred acres of farmland about 500 km/300 miles south of St. Petersburg, Russia. The property was a dairy farm in Soviet times, and the property has one house that needs repair and a very large masonry cow barn (30m/100' x 100m/300' w/ 9m/25' ceiling). The property has a 7 hectare/15 acre lake. The area is very ecologically clean and the water very pure. There is a birch forest of several thousand acres north of our property, and a beautiful 4 km/2.5 mile rolling meadow down to a river on the south of the property. We are 7 km / 4 miles from a reasonable-sized town of 7,000 people. The area is a huge tourist draw in summer (30,000 per day) because the family estate of Pushkin is one the other side of the river. There are only about 200 hotel rooms available in the city. We can get government loans to purchase a dairy cow herd and probably get grant money to buy milking equipment. The dairy barn needs expensive repairs ($200,000 USD) - I have the skill to do it (rebuilding perimeter brick walls and stuccoing), but it is a huge number of hours of work. There is a cheese factory not far from us that will buy all of the milk we can produce.

    We are working to establish an income-sharing egalitarian hippie community that lives onsite. The ownership will be shared by full-members. There will be communal housing at first, and we intend to direct resources to building supplies to build stand-alone houses. Our values are similar to the "true" 60's hippies.

    There isn't really a hippie or counter-culture here. There is a growing movement of "eco-hippies", but we don't relate to them. We investigated joining up with a group of them. They are into a community of couples, while we are into a mixed community of singles/couples. The eco-hippie idea here seems very ascetic.

    > This is not even about discipline and boundaries
    > as much as the safety issues for all

    What safety issues? I can see child abuse issues and have read of the problems people leaving the community to whom children are attached can cause.

    > Intimate Relationships can be wonderful and also a breeding ground
    > for jealousy, possessiveness, abuse, disease, and so on

    I don't understand the disease comment - std's?
     
  10. old_crone

    old_crone Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    Every one in the community is part of the community. What one thinks, acts on and believes both affects and effects the whole community given enough time. When everyone is not working toward the same goal with the same willingness to work in harmony, Dis-Ease grows.

    The issues with children can be as simple as expectations of the community taking care of the children as if the community was a free baby sitting service and care provider. Here the parents take little or no responsibility for the child's needs, but are quick to complain if problems arise. Everything from legal issues, to drugs, and abandonment, to bullying, and age issues where sex is involved. The community can do a million things right but one bad parent or hints at neglect and abuse can destroy everything.

    In intimate relations the Dis-Ease can fester with ego, poor judgments, lack of trust, laziness, immaturity, personal drama's, gossip, std's, break down in communication, and abuse which opens the door to fear and lack of working together for the common good, to name some. A person or individual will only respect and value others as they respect and value who they are.

    Yes, Communities can be great. They can be extended families working together. They can be amazing places to grow, share time, and space with. Friendships are formed that will last a life time no matter where you are.

    But there are also those who would seek to destroy with intent that which is good with their own inner dis-ease.

    {{on another note, and to leave this post with a positive thought, sounds like you have a great place and enough work, dreams and possibilities to keep you busy. Wishing you much success and blessings. Do you have any pictures?}}
     
  11. SpacemanSpiff

    SpacemanSpiff Visitor

    in canada having babies and being disabled can actually bring in more (government ) cash for a family (or commune) than a working person can
     
  12. Rutz

    Rutz The Farming Communist

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    Well then, time to break out the Viagra and the trusty old knee hammer, eh?

    Old Crone, you sounds just like somebody from the Twelve Tribes communities. They use the exact same expressions.
     
  13. AlchemistGeorge

    AlchemistGeorge Living Communally since 1995

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    We don't have limitations on having kids. We do think it is friendly to talk to folks before you have them, though - in a group you are going to be asking other folks to help out. At various times over the past 43 years we had so many kids that there was a nursery (and later a children's house) and everybody got to do nursery shifts. At the moment we don't have any, although I expect we'll have some in the next 2 to 5 years.

    Like many groups we are very aware of the average age of our group. Over the last 15 years we've actually moved in three elderly parents of members. We have helped take care of those parents. Its not a decision to be undertaken lightly.

    Every person who is interested in living with us is a case by case discussion.
     
  14. pushkin

    pushkin Guest

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    @BRAD

    > in canada having babies and being disabled can actually bring in more
    > (government ) cash for a family (or commune) than a working person can

    Absolutely not here. Disability is about $200 USD a month. Living costs (food, gas) are about the same as Chicago, USA. Clothes are a little more expensive (no cheap Chinese imports). Cars are a lot more expensive (100% import tariff on foreign makes to protect domestic makers). Rent would be about the same as Chicago outside of downtown, but most people here live very simply and save to buy (there are no reasonable mortgages so you might as well start young). McDonald's pays about $6.25 USD/hour, professional jobs pay less than the U.S. (certified accountant about $25,000 USD per year). There is no welfare here, but anybody can get a job as they are plentiful.

    @old_crone -

    Thank you for your advice.

    > one bad parent or hints at neglect and abuse can destroy everything

    I mentioned in a prior post that I have a theatrical company in the city and that we have some children's programs. I would link to our website, but I have a partner in it who is not interested in the commune at all and wouldn't want them associated. We have lived what you say above. It is 1% of the parents who cause 99% of the problems for sure. They are very draining to handle. The one that takes the cake - a mother who sends her son with a portable playstation video game, and calls me to complain that he's sitting inside playing his game when the other kids are out doing things! We have strict liability with things having to do with children, my partner and I would be criminally liable for the actions of the people we employ so we are very careful. The worst for us is teenage suicide attempts, it happened a year ago very seriously.

    > A person or individual will only respect and value others
    > as they respect and value who they are

    I believe this. Our goal is a dual-culture community (Russian/European, with North America/Australian being considered European to us) with everyone bilingual. Several of our Russian part have lived long periods in America, Canada, or England, so we have a good idea of what the cultural tensions are. We have used the theater business to build our community initially here in the city, by having several common apartments, working together, and using money from the business to recruit foreigners (we are English theater :)). These are people I had known for many years or had references from people who knew them many years and that I trust.

    One of the six we recruited didn't work out, and I concluded it was because he didn't think much of himself. How could he think anything of me if he didn't care anything of himself? Terrible experience. A second is questionable whether he'll work out. He called today asking for money. He has turned down offers of work, I pay his rent anyway, he is only averaging one or two hours of work a week and is down to a can of corn because that work went away over the May Day holidays. How much is it to ask that someone at least provide food for themselves when there is plenty of work all around, I arrange it for him and all he has to do is talk to someone for an hour? He has a lot of experience working in a dairy farm so I am hoping he works out, that when it is a task away from other people he can put his mind to it, but I'm doubtful. He believes in our ideals though, and the other four we recruited have worked out great.

    I don't have any photographs at the moment, we are going to put a website up in the next couple of weeks. The photos are on a computer that won't start for several weeks now.

    @AlchemistGeorge

    > Its not a decision to be undertaken lightly

    I am pretty ignorant of what is involved in taking care of elderly/disabled people. It is not so common here, or at least not as seen. My partner in the theater business's mother is confined to bed and I know it is a lot on him. He has someone twice a week to help for a few hours.

    One of the reasons I've wondered is that we have a value of allocating some of our resources to helping others. This is not so common an idea here, usually such a consideration involves figuring out how to make money doing it (which is I suppose not so different from the states - most people there with "altruistic" jobs there make high five-figure salaries).

    The problems we face as a country are, in order (according to most surveys):

    1) ecological damage
    2) depopulation

    We would like to take in some young people who have aged out of the orphanage system. We would be interested in helping other groups, like drug addicts, etc., but personally people with heroin/meth addictions are beyond what I feel I have any ability to do any good for. The statistics for these young adults aging out are horrible: 10% commit suicide by age 22, 40% are in prison by that age, 40% are drug addicts and homeless, and only 10% actually go on to have decent lives.

    Many of these people were abandoned because of physical disabilities, and they are also the ones never taken in by any families. They really have no hope. They are entitled to a college education, but can't get admitted to a university because the number of slots set aside for social students (low income, etc.) are very low. They are entitled to live in obshezhetya (like a hostel with shared rooms) until they are 22, but are unprepared for it (don't know how to shop, cook, use money, etc.) and have to leave anyway with no where to go (they go on a waiting list for social apartments but that pool is very small and they don't have money to navigate the system to obtain one).

    So we want to set aside a certain number of spaces for these young adults, and accommodate them with work they can do, but I really don't know what we are getting into with it.
     
  15. Desos

    Desos Senior Member

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    everybody works.

    children take classes and have people to look after them. though, i have seen 14 yo kids come in to work, too. lol.
     
  16. old_crone

    old_crone Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    Pushkin

    Have you thought of working with different forms of energy healing? Every thing from Toning, Core Healing, Reiki, Crystal healing and so on. This could offer you long term help.
     
  17. Desos

    Desos Senior Member

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    "if someone comes along and they are disabled and all they can do is look after chickens, then we will buy some chickens."

    i'd put disabled people to work and accomodate for their disability.
     
  18. Logan 5

    Logan 5 Confessed gynephile Lifetime Supporter

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    Even if someone is bed-ridden, they can do something. If they are so disabled that there is absolutely nothing they can do, then they are a true burden on society.

    I have several physical disabilities, and I can still work. Maybe I can't run a D9 dozer, or perform brain surgery, but there is always something I can do.

    Sadly the communes disagree. Those I've checked out want someone with some fancy college degree and a shitload of money to share.
     
  19. pushkin

    pushkin Guest

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    Logan - can I ask what the nature of your disabilities are?

    We have one disabled person in our group. He has a heart condition that limits his ability to do a lot of things. We are all of a mind to accommodate his limitations, even if that is frustrating sometimes. The frustrations stem from sometimes feeling like he doesn't contribute enough in the ways he can. As a simple thing, he isn't able to share in washing dishes after meals because of balance/equilibrium issues. But he can rinse his dishes off and take them to the sink, and at first he would just get up from the table and leave the plates there. Even issues like this which cause conflict are difficult to sort out totally, the reason he was doing this is he was afraid of dropping the dishes and breaking them.

    I would guess in all cases a little bit of special effort to accommodate disabilities would bear fruit. We could buy or make a cart to move dishes on from the table to the sink, for example.

    Are there any communities that have a focus on welcoming people with disabilities? It seems like it would be a fruitful avenue for recruiting, if they had the feeling that no one in the community looked at them differently for whatever it is. I would think they'd feel more loyalty to and protective of the community than the random prospective new member.
     

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