The selfishness of childbirth

Lol good god. Miss the point much?

This thread is stupid. Where's the damn kool aid, you selfish bastards

 

Seeings how we were not able to bring our own children into this world we adopted 2 girls. We gave them the chances they never would have had being raised by a 15 and 16 year old mother.

 

I don't think having kids is selfish. You wouldn't be here if your parents believed that.

It's the mentality people have this day in age about having kids. It does get annoying. As if they're kid(s) are different or better than anyone else's.

I really get sick of people who use their kids as trophies because they have nothing else to show for themselves.

 

What about those of us who wish we weren't here? And who partly feel that way because of the behaviour/actions of our own parents? I think to say having kids isn't selfish for that reason doesn't make any sense. If putting kids on this earth is an un-selfish act, why do so many parents then act in a very selfish manner after their kids are born?

The truth is many, many parents don't think of the enormity of bringing a new life into the world. And lots of people have kids "just because", and because it's viewed as the "normal" thing to do. Even in this day and age, not wanting children carries a stigma. Many people still see it as "unnatural" if someone doesn't want kids. And it carried even more of a stigma in times past.

Even my own mother admits that if she could have seen into the future, she wouldn't have had children. And I think therein lies the heart of the matter. Bringing a new life into the world is a huge thing, yet many future parents put about as much thought into the ramifications of having a child as they do into what they are going to have for dinner that evening. As was stated earlier in this thread, any person who is not willing to endure huge self-sacrifice, and putting their child's needs before their own, shouldn't have kids. I guess the problem is, some parents seem to think their days of self sacrifice should go no further once a child reaches the stage when it starts expressing a mind of it's own.

Strangely, I think most people who adopt a child are far more selfless than many who take care of their own biological children.

 

Nothing you said I disagree with.

 

Yarapario's post contained anecdotal content from his experience as an adoptive parent having lived the process of bringing a fairly large number of children up to become parents on their own right... his perspective of having been a parent gives him a bit of credibility to expound on a topic that your status, which I assume is not that of a parent, would not. I could be wrong about that, and my apologies in advance if that is the case.

Making blanket statements as you did in your opening salvo will invariably hit a nerve with more than a few people who have assumed the role of parent and I cannot bring myself to believe that you didn't anticipate that going in. You are certainly free to express these views but part of that freedom is to accept that a few reactions might get out of hand. Yes, yarapario did get in a jab but my opinion is that the retort was not out of proportion to what you've chosen to assert as though it were incontrovertible fact- akin to your assertion here that there was nothing to sidestep... because you evaded the issue that your opening statement reflected ignorance on the topic of parenting.

You may not have intended to attack yarapario personally but in making such broad generalizations it may have well come across as if you had. these are the risks with making such assertions about "facts" concerning whole groups of people... and you have demonstrated sufficient intelligence to convince me beyond any doubt that you are likely very well aware of that. People would feel assaulted and reply in kind to you so that you can accuse them of ad hominem attacks when it was you who tried to establish as "fact" an assertion that a good many would see as deeply offensive.

If your point were that there is an element of selfishness in parenting in general I could see how that might be supported... or if you chose to set out that a portion of parents are totally selfish then by factoring in a degree of exception you'd have furnished some leeway for parents who are participating to not feel as though the enormously difficult job they've assumed- that becomes a part of their identity (parent)- is being assailed as an act of complete selfishness.

As for yarapario being the only one to address your argument of selfishness, I see numerous posts that address your core argument that all parenting is a purely selfish act:

Anecdotal example of an exception to your "pure selfishness" claim.

A definition of parenting as essentially being selfless.

Addressing your claim that "everyone" talks about parenting as you claim.

We don't make mistakes selfishly... and to make life changes to accommodate an unplanned pregnancy is a mark of great character in part because it to me reflects selflessness when the act of conceiving the child may have been a selfish impulse..

Disagrees with your assertion then cites some examples supporting it.

You chose to acknowledge only one. I would say that by having raised seven children he might be especially well qualified to address your original point but I do not see him as being the only one who did here.

I sense a pattern here where you characterize your own observations and opinions as fact but do not seem to tolerate others using their own opinions and observations to rebut.

 

Yeah those are the types of people who shouldn't be able to have kids. Like that show Toddlers and Tiaras, it makes me sick! Those little girls look miserable all because there mother's want to have the "best" little superstar.....NOT.

 

well, once you're here you have the option to not be here. if they don't put you here in the first place, you never even have the choice. just because some kids may not be happy doesn't necessarily make childbirth a selfish action.

the same reason so many parents act in a very selfless manner after their kids are born. because everybody's different, as are their motivations. childbirth can be selfish, selfless, or neither one. and even after the kids are born, the parents' attitudes and motivations are subject to change at any time.

 

You do, trouble is, killing yourself requires guts. Guts that I do not possess. You may have a choice, but for many, it's not an easy, nor a nice one to make. And committing the action itself isn't easy either. Just because it is for some people, doesn't mean that is the case for everyone. Believe me, I've tried. I'd rather have never been given such a horrible choice to make in the first place.

I never said it did. Problem is, you've chosen to take what I've said as an absolute viewpoint (even though on more than one ocassion in this thread, I made statements that clearly go AGAINST the notion that childbirth is always a selfish action). So either you're suggesting childbirth is always a selfless action, or you've decided to put words into my mouth. And like I said earlier in this thread, saying wanting to be a parent is always a selfless action is just as ludicrous as suggesting that it's always a selfish action. The OP may (or may not) have made an absolute statement regarding the issue, I myself, never did. Quite the opposite in fact.

You are basically just repeating what I myself have already said previously in this thread. I might not have worded it in the exactly same way, but if you read all of my previous posts in this thread, you'll see that you're telling me nothing that I myself haven't already stated here.

 

It is indeed genetic selfishness, which through the hormones of the body gives us a "need" to reproduce, and makes us think its one of our purposes. It is indeed in a way though, because souls that want to be born into this world use that instinct to have bodies to actually come into. So its a tool I assume

 

I agree with what strawberry fields said...and her comment hit home because she mentioned that life can be horrible but it often makes us stronger. I've also had some suicide attempts and it did make me stronger. Nearly a year after these attempts is when I had my first child and I can't imagine actually dying and never meeting my daughter..

Life is both cruel & beautiful.

Also after giving birth, I feel like I can do anything now. I'm invincible and strong. Giving birth is Amazingly Painful..

I used to actually be anti-breeding years ago, in the sense that I just didn't wanna have kids. I didn't see the point. I felt others could do whatever they wanted and have kids(as long as they're taking good care of the children, which some parents fail to do).

As I got a little older, I did get an instinct that I wanted to be a parent. It just hit me one day. I've always loved kids though. I've worked in daycare's and I'm a nanny. Adults are tainted and kids are so much more fun and such a joy to be around.

OP mentioned that children didn't asked to be brought into the world. I believe in reincarnation and do think that these little souls do want to be brought into the world or have to in order to better themselves each life and learn and reach enlightenment...

I'm going to disagree with OP and say that having a child is actually selfless and not selfish. I would do ANYTHING for my little girl. I will protect her from any harm. A mother's love can not be explained, it has to be felt. I've never had more love for anyone more than I have for this child. I'm now pregnant with my second little one..

I see myself as a good parent, a progressive parent. She's in a loving environment and I'm helping her learn and grow. I think she will indeed become a positive influence to the world, as will her baby brother or sister.

 

The best post in this thread.................

 

Ha, but then some people can argue that it's selfish To kill yourself. People usually argue that it's selfish to leave people that love you behind..

Ahh this is never ending..

I do agree to an extent that being is indeed selfish though. We use up all of Earth's resources. That's selfish.

 

An excellent point

We are all selfish in so many ways. I don't really view having children as selfish, but even supposing it is I really don't think it is the biggest danger of selfishness that we humans have to deal with. Our ridiculous overuse of resources beyond what we need is a problem that goes way beyond having more children.

Lots of people talk about how the earth can't support more people, but if people didn't selfishly use more than they need, then the earth could support more people.

 

But don't you see, you view your child as part of you. How then can your behaviour be selfless? You wouldn't do anything for another child, only yours. Your child is part of YOU because it is YOU who gave birth to it. Not any other child. So I say it is selfish - protecting your child is protecting yourself, simple as that.

 

What I was trying to explain is that having a child makes you more concerned about something other than Yourself or anything else for that matter. Your child always comes first.

I didn't say I wouldn't do anything for another child. I'm very concerned with the welfare of children (and animals too) and do anything in my power to protect them and I would help other children if needed.

Sure my child is a part of me, but she's also ultimately her own person.

 

and that is where you don't see, a child is a part of you. mothers feel this life growing inside them, moving around even responding to certain things.

When the child grows up it looks like you, that is a part of you.

 

You can only speak for yourself, in that regard, not all parents. If you are a good parent, your child SHOULD always come first. However, there is a number of parents who do not put their child's needs first. This can manifest itself in many ways, from being simply downright neglectful or even abusive, to expressing disappointment, or even disowning them if they turn out too differently to what you had envisioned them to be like.

A child is it's own person, you're absolutely right. The trouble is, because a lot of parents see their children as like minature versions of themselves, they have their own expectations and desires for them, with not much freedom for the child to express it's own identity. If it happens to come into conflict with those expectations and desires. My mother says she never asked for me to be born the way I was, as if I somehow did ask for it.

Too many parents are not prepared to deal with the concept of how they will handle it if their child turns out to be very different from how they envisioned them being. And it's the child who has to suffer the fallout from that. We have to remember, it is the child who is the innocent party in that scenario, not the parent. It's not the child's fault if their parents have pre-determined expectations for their life, and then take it out on you when you fail to live up to them.

 

My adopted daughters are not biologically part of me but there every bit is.

 

No argument there. I see that perfectly. I'm wondering how people can see this and still argue having a child is "selfless".