I do admit that my knowledge of the buddhist faith is quite limited atleast if you compare it with that of the islamic, jewish and christian faith, anyhow, from where or from whom or from what did Siddhartha get this 'enlightened' revelation from if I may ask sense it is said that he didn't believe in Allah[God](may he be exalted)?
siddharta gautama was prince of that part of northern india now called nepal... he left the palace (and a wife and child) at about the same age that jesus began his ministry... he was of the warrior/ruler caste, and was most certainly raised within india's hindu traditions, taught by brahmin philosopher/priests, and quite familiar with the many gods that are manifestations of the one god... he started his quest for liberation (from this weary wheel of death and rebirth) by joining a band of hindu ascetics, and outstripped them all in his mortifications of the flesh... but full awakening was not yet revealed to him... with his fast broken and his strength restored, he sat down ander a fig tree with the intention of diving deep into samadhi until he achieved the great liberation... and finally (perhaps after innumerable lifetimes of trying & preparing for this very lifetime, his last chained to the wheel of rebirth) he woke all the way up... and realized that all of us spend our waking and sleeping moments pretty much asleep, tranced out in our shared illusion... and he spent the next several decades of his life preaching his gospel of liberation up & down india: life is filled with dis-satisfactions these dis-satisfactions are caused by our attachments there is a way to stop this never-ending string of unsatisfactory experiences the way to stop them is by following the noble eight-fold path of the awakened one and others can show us the way that worked for them, BUT - even the help of the god(s) is not enough in the end (because, in the end, even the god(s) are themselves trapped in the cycle of the great wheel) - we must make the final effort by ourselves... okay? i try to answer your query... namaste salaam shanti om blessed be ameen...
I already knew that, my question is quite simple, excuse me if I may sound dumb but I´ve read he was enlightned and that he saw 3 things, this is taken from a buddhist site: During his enlightenment experience, Siddhattha attained three types of knowledge. First he saw that he had died and been reborn many times: 'I recollected my manifold past lives, that is, one birth, two births, three births...a hundred thousand births.' Each birth was seen in some detail: 'There I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance...and passing away from there, I reappeared here'. Then, having acquired the 'divine eye', he saw that all beings are reborn according to their deeds, the law of : 'I saw beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate....according to their actions'. He saw that good action led to happy states; bad actions to miserable ones. Lastly, he saw the nature of suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering and the way leading to the cessation of suffering what is this divine eye, what gave him these powers to see such things, how did he attain it, why doesn´t normal buddhist see such things?
I may be wrong but I've always seen the "divine eye" as a figure of speach rather than some kind of super power. I think that "having aquired the divine eye" simply means being enlightened and realising that people and people alone are responsible for what happens in the next life, not some judgemental God up living in the sky.
OK cab - two things, the second post does not refer to anything the Buddha came up with, it refers to Hindu beliefs (that the Buddha did expand on a little). Secondly, he did not recieve his revealation from any God or superbeing as the Prophets did. If this was the case he would not have said "Do not look to anywhere outside yourself for your own enlightenment." He does not just refer to other people, he also refers to God. He was in a VERY theistic society at the time and he needed to make it clear to people that they should look to themselves, not to God. He started his journey (as Siddhartha Gautama, [baring in mind reincarnation]) by wondering why people are unhappy, and he wanted to find the key to happiness. After much meditation and observation of, not just the behaviour of others but the processes his own mind went through, he came to 4 realisations. These are his first ever teachings and are now refered to as "The Four Noble Truths". 1. Suffering (or more approriatly unsatisfaction [the sanskrit is "Duhka" and which means "ill fitting wheel" and refer to an analogy of the feeling that arises from travelling in a carriage with an "ill fitting wheel"]) 2. Cause of Suffering He said this was conditionality. By being bound to the world of conditionality we are bound to Duhka. 3. The cessation of suffering He said this was freedom from the conditioned world. 4. Path to the cessation of suffering This was later taught to be the "noble eightfold path". I interpret it as a teaching on tolerance, and that everyone is on their own path to the cessation of suffering. For example yours is Islam, a christian's would be Christianity and so on. You see each of these teachings is completely independant of God. This is why many people consider the Buddha more of a psycologist than a philosopher. This is also why Buddhism is not called a religion by many scholars of religion. I hope this helps. Sebbi
Did he then also find all these rules enlightened to him? A monk is allowed to collect, receive and consume food between dawn and midday (taken to be 12 noon). He is not allowed to consume food outside of this time and he is not allowed to store food overnight. Plain water can be taken at any time without having to be offered. Although a monk lives on whatever is offered, vegetarianism is encouraged. A monk must have all eatables and drinkables, except plain water, formally offered into his hands or placed on something in direct contact with his hands. In the Thai tradition, in order to prevent contact with a woman, he will generally set down a cloth to receive things offered by women. He is not allowed to cure or cook food except in particular circumstances. In accordance with the discipline, a monk is prohibited from eating fruit or vegetables containing fertile seeds. etc... Secondly, if they were to find all these things in them selves then why follow him and all his rules which he and his students have laid down to monks, why wont these monks sit beneath the nearest oak-tree and hope to find them selves some own rules and 'enlightment'. I can often understand why a jew does a thing or doesn't or why a christian does a thing or refrains from it, but I can never seem to understand why a buddhist[monk] would live a live of poverty begging people and living in celibacy, by Allah the upper hand is better than the lower as the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) described. I hope not to offend anyone and even though I never really met a buddhist but I do hear through several indications and rumors that they are quite kind people but being kind can not compensate for credulousness, I would be interested to hear your replies... 14.18. The parable of those who disbelieved in their Lord is that their works are as ashes, on which the wind blows furiously on a stormy day; they shall not be able to get aught of what they have earned. That is the straying, far away (from the right path).[Quran chapter Ibrahim]
I'm fairly sure that was written later by one of the many who has expanded on Buddhist teachings. Well that's the idea. Unfortunatly most feel the need for guidelines to follow. I have 2 points to make here. 1. Firstly most modern Buddhists (and Buddhism strives to change with the world so that the teachings can be best transmitted to (and practiced by) the current audience) do not live in poverty, though many don't live with any more than they need. My aunt is a Buddhist nun in the FWBO and is not living off alms, nor living in celebacy. 2. Secondly. The wheel of suffering is said to be powered by three forces: greed/attachment, hatred/aversion, ignorance. If you are living off alms then you cannot afford to live with any one of these forces. (Just got off the phone to my aunt.) The idea about celebacy is to do with simplicity and self-contentment. Obviously, it also has to do with ethics and not pressuring (or worse, forcing) others to exercise your sexual profile with. More importantly it's to do with self-contentment. We often have a mindset that we are only happy if we are with someone - our happiness is conditioned by others. Since all conditions essenially lead to Dukha this is not good. This monastic rule is based on the 4th of the 5 precepts (abstainance from sexual misconduct). Blessings Sebbi
If I may... and to make it shorter? The path Buddha has shown is not directed directly to God or Allah Maybe people think he may have reach Him in a way. (and that is certainly not in accordance with Islam beliefs, which I dunno about) But the path shown is really interesting to better understand oneself thoughts about itself. (but I am not sure I know about it anyway But could it have made sense?
I come up to think: there must be a whole we all beings form in material way maybe even including material things a whole within each being The why for those wholes, are... definetly Peace
I am not suggesting that this Buddha guy recieved revelation but I was just interested to know where he got all these rules and ideas from, anybody who claims that Allah(may he be exalted) does not exist is not following guidance. Even more suprising and plainly disgusting is how there are millions of buddhists who worship this man, even though he didn't believe in God(s)!!! I am aware of the fact that not all buddhists worship him, but still the paganisitc view in this religion is dreadful and repulsive. (As seen on these pictures, these men "are enjoying the pleasure of finding enlightment") Have they feet to walk with? Or hands to lay hold with? Or eyes to see with? Or ears to hear with?...[Quran 7.195] 7.33. Say: "(But) the things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are the Fawahish (immoral deeds) whether committed openly or secretly, and Ithm, and transgression without right, and joining partners with Allah for which He has given no authority, and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.''
No Buddhist worships the Buddha, they respect him for his teaching but he is not worshiped. There is a Buddhist analogy that wisemen are fingers pointing to the moon. If you look at the finger then you'll miss the moon. As for where he got his teachings from, he based it partly on the current Hindu beliefs and he got most of it from his own mind. Oh and Cab - before this post I appeared you were asking this out of genuine inquisitiveness, now you are calling aspects of Buddhism "dreadful and repulsive". You said that you do not wish to offend anyone. I suggest you don't start now. Please make sure you keep your mind open in the search for tolerance. Blessings Sebbi
I read in a book about someone turned off by the fact Zen Buddhists were bowing to a statue. So the head of the Zen place went in back and took one of the statues and through it against a wall. I thought that was an important statement. Dauer
Hey Cab, I hope I can provide some insight into your questions. As far as I know, while Buddha was alive he neither denied nor confirmed the existence of Allah/God. However, there are many Buddhists who do actually believe in God. Most bow to Buddha statues as a sign of respect, but I do agree that some emulate siddharta gautama to a God-like status. I recall on another Buddhist forum I visited, that there was a thread discussing the fact that a few ancient Buddhist statues had been destroyed. Most of the people shared a feeling of sadness that such wonders had been destroyed. However, personally I think that one should try not to become attached to such statues, because they were merely that...statues. Such external things are not fundamental in our quest for compassion and inner repose. Honestly, I have no idea why some of the rules for monks were instituted. However, I am not sure if it was Buddha who institued these rules, or later members of the Sangha (I don't know much about the history behind Buddhist monastics). I believe you bring up a good point about how Buddha became enlightened after meditation under a bodhi tree, while others follow the strict monastic life to gain such results. Some may argue it is because of karma--Buddha had already been getting closer to enlightenment in his previous lifetimes--but for those of us who don't believe in karma I believe it is a valid question. I htink that there is not one lifestyle that will lead to enlightenment. For some this may mean a life in a monastary, for others 12 years alone in a cave, and for others it may simply mean living as a lay Buddhist. In love, Diana
I appreciate the answer Diana, but one thing that gets me is that when I ask a question about this religion I recieve alot of different answers contradicting each other(which makes my small little mind confused), you and Dauer confirm the fact that [some] buddhists bow and worship Buddha and you say it´s for respect while Sebbi claims(in great denial) that NO buddhist worship buddha, watch your words young man. Idols of buddha are extremly widespread these days and for instance in the Wat Saket Monastery in Laos there are 300 idols and statues of Buddha. You can even find people worshipping the temple where all the former Dali lamas are buried - a temple! I and a couple of million muslims, christians and jews do find these kinds of worship to a statue disgusting because it goes against the most important part of the monotestic belief, the most important commandment. "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (this statue is called the protector of Tibet among alot of tibetan buddhists) 2.165. And of mankind are some who take (for worship) others besides Allah as rivals (to Allah). They love them as they love Allah. But those who believe, love Allah more (than anything else). 17.22. Set not up with Allah any other ilah (god), or you will sit down reproved, forsaken (in the Hellfire). 17.23. And your Lord has Qada [decreed] that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents...
If a vedantin may intervene in this discussion, I believe I have a slightly different light to throw on some of the things said in this thread. I understand this statement to mean that the Lord is one, all pervading, everywhere, everything is One, that One is what we call by various names as God, Brahman, Allah. Hence, if I see that Lord in a statue, in a piece of stone, in a painting, in a wooden cross, it doesnt matter what I see it in, because what I am seeing is the Lord. Don't christians bow before the cross or a pictures of Jesus? Are they worshipping Jesus or the piece of wood and canvas before them? Don't muslims kneel and kiss the ground while saying namaz? Does that then mean that they are worshipping the dust, or the four walls of the room they are in? At Mecca, is not the most solemn moment of the pilgrim when they get to touch the Black Stone? Is it not worshipped from a distance? Do pilgrims not touch the walls of the ka'bah? Who is that different from worshipping at the temple where the Dalai Lamas are buried? It is the divinity in these idols, paintings and symbols that is being worshipped, not the idols themselves.
As for the monastic rules, the reasons for them are quite obvious to me. Not hoarding food, not keeping any possessions, etc is a way to develop detachment from physical comforts and "needs". To go and beg for food requires a lack of egoism. A beggar cannot have a great sense of pride, thus it is a lesson in humility. It is also a way of developing control over the body and the senses. Eat whatever is given to you, so you are not governed by the taste or quantity of food (in some sanyasa traditios in Hinduism, not only do monks have to beg, they must wash the food 3 times to remove all spices and make it as bland and tasteless as possible). This is the sam reason why monks are not allowed to cook food either. Water is essential for the body, more than food, therefore water is allowed to the monks at any time. Also a monk, as a part of his practise, must do japa/chanting, so it is important that he have water so thathis throat does not go dry. Out of respect for life you don't eat fertile seed bearing fruit and try to maintain vegetarianism. Celibacy of course is very important as it is the easiest thing in the world to get attached to sexual pleasures, they are a great distracting, a great source of attachement. Hence monks are told to avoid even touching a woman when she offers food. Also the life of beggary is good for others, it teaches those who feed the monks the joy of giving and charity. Is that not a central tenet of all religions? These guidelines are all to be understood and interpreted knowing the reason and the spirit in which they were laid down, not in a blind "because they say so" attitude.
As for the pictures of the monks enjoying the pleasures of enlightenment, to an enlightened one, the body is nothing! It matters in the least wether the body is healthy and in good condition, or if it is burning in the pyre. They are far beyond in a deep seat of bliss, untouched by the vagaries of this world. Also, pictures taken out of context have no meaning. Was it the monk who set fire to himself, or was he a tibetan teacher burnt at the stake by a group of intolerant "christians" or chinese invaders? Do not be in such a hurry to judge, dear friend, for someone else may lay the same judgement upon you.
Cab, my story was meant to show that the statues mean nothing. There is nothing sacred about them. The man took it and flung it hard against a wall. And after that, people came in and continued to bow to the same empty spot where the statue was as if nothing had happened. I think you misunderstood the meaning of my post. Dauer
Diana - the Sangha was set up as a way of practicing the Dharma. There are some people who practice more effectivively in a monastic way and there are some who practice more effectively as a lay-person. The Buddha was aware of this and created the Sangha. Cab - First things first, don't tell me to watch my words. I mean what I say and don't play the parent talking to a naughty child. If you REALLY want the cosmic significance of the Buddha, he represents the potential of that each and every one of us will become a perfect being. This universal force is probably what you would recognise as God. In many traditions monks do what appears to be worship but the point of it is, not to exalt I force that they may never know, but to surrender and dedictate themselfs be embodying it. Someone may call themselves Buddhist and worship the Buddha but this would not be in accordance with the Dharma because it disregards on of the most important teaching - that of self-satisfaction. Blessings Sebbi
