Morality and perversion

I do not at all enjoy being accused. I do not invite it. I am very aware of what motivates us all. As I said, I have become virtuous in some things, most specifically in knowing myself and knowing that the I am I call myself is the same I am you call yourself.

I do not believe in "people like her", that is I recognize karen j as my same self.
I had no reason to anticipate that the conversation would turn so dramatically, as I said I found karen j to be more tolerant than most but I inadvertently pushed some button. I don't know if it occurs to you or not, but her reaction and conclusions are disparate to the circumstance of simply having a philosophical conversation.

If there is one complaint my friends have of me it is that I am brutally honest. It can be true. The reason being is that I do not regard life as a joke
and our only commodity is time. Time is short and I cannot support people in their illusions for the sake of uncomfortable feelings that may be aroused. If I imagined for one instance that dispelling illusion was harmful, I would be more circumspect. But the thing about illusions is they are not real and have no real effect on being. They have a seriously disorienting effect on the clarity of mind however.

If karen j were to take what I said to heart, she would gain greater peace of mind, which is what she claims to be after. My intent is in no way sinister or does not take joy in discomfort.

If someone finds me insightful, it is insight that we share.

 

Of course you feel it as a shame as wel that the climax of the convo you guys had turned into one using the ignore button. That's a pretty rigoureus ending.
It's not about you being accused I think, but in your brutal honest as you call it you are accusing others... (or if not it is easily interpreted that way). You know how to push buttons. You do unto others what you do not like to be done to (accusing), that someone may just not get you or is personally offended by your statements is sometimes out of your reach I agree. That you seem to think you should use your limited time to delude other peoples illusions by being brutally honest is what I guess causes misunderstanding and frustration. Not always a purely negative thing but yeah.

If someone does find me insightful, it is insight that we share? How insightful. If someone does not find me insightful, it is still insight that we shared.

 

I considered it unfortunate, not shameful, because I enjoy as I said, many of her perspectives.

I have witnessed time and again how people find me insulting but we are never upset for a fact, but the interpretation of fact. I do not take offense. It is not that I know how to push peoples buttons. I do not try to push peoples buttons. It is as I have said, that I have studied deeply of my own causes. I know the effects of projection, that is accusing outside circumstance for my own state of mental/emotional being, is debilitating.

I accuse no one for my state of mind or my level of comfort. My mind is a kingdom I alone can rule. What is interpreted as accusation, is a description of phenomena only. Not meant to be a personal assessment of worthiness. To me this is a philosophy and religion forum not a debate contest. Philosophy and religion are both concerned with seeking truth.

I do not to try and delude other peoples illusions, what I am saying is I do not have time to support the illusions that are causing anxiety.
Suffering is the problem, not the solution. It is not the problem that teaches, it is the solution that teaches.

I do recognize that disillusionment can be perceived as painful but it need not be, if you are really concerned to know the truth. Many say they want truth when they are having difficulty, but truth becomes secondary to comfort, and when they are comfortable then truth is less a concern. Is that an accusation? I think it an observation of human tendency, I mean no personal offense. Some I have spoken with on the other hand avow the desire to "cause me pain", or to "discredit me".

Why is that so? Because they have no other reasonable response as their own reason had failed them.

I am asking that consideration be given to the idea that we are all innocent. That is nothing to hide or no reason to be offended. That we may discuss any issue or problem, or make any observation in peace.

I come here to share my thoughts because I have thoughts to share. I come to my conclusions through the avenue of my own suffering. I have the example of my life before and my life after.

I had written a book. Took me two years. It was on my computer and was not backed up. My girlfriend inadvertently deleted the manuscript. I was ambivalent about writing the book in the first place because there are so many good books I was not convinced that another was necessary, but friends and family had encouraged me.

But I was not encouraged enough to write it again. I still had something to share however and I thought how could my thoughts be any more succinctly communicated than through living conversation. This is my book given away.
Not to force it on anyone, take it or leave it.

I was shell shocked, shattered, and scared from all of the brutality, deceptions, and inconsistent affections of life and I found myself totally broken, unable to appreciate anything of life. It was at that point that I came to the conclusion that I had nothing to loose, that there had to be a better way to function in life and I was going to find it. I spent the next two years staring at my navel so to speak.

You could well call it bullshit and that is not insight but looking at something outside and judging against it, in which case it is considered a separate opinion that is not shared. Sometimes someone may agree with what you say and give you the repute that your comment was "insightful", in that instance then, they share your insight.

 

thedope has been the love of my life for five years. When I met him, I was a stressed out bitch who lived within the "moral code" that was set before me by theists of all walks of life. I was Atheist, even Secular when I met him. And miserable. I still can't stand all of the god talking he does on here, but I ain't gunna judge.

We love to sit and talk about these threads because it's always the same thing. He says something that isn't the same perspective, then the attacks come. It's funny because we so often hear that thedope is a closet case with no friends, woman or life. Usually, I don't bother with a defense because the attacks will just continue the more I defend, and I'd really rather be happy than right.

However, Johnny (AKA thedope) is the most loving, non judgmental man you're ever going to meet. Truly. I can say this wholeheartedly because I used to be the MOST judgmental bitch on the planet. But, somehow this man saw that I was good inside and asked to be my friend. It was very hard for me to wrap my head around some of his perspectives, and it is even after 5 years. However, when I started to practice NOT judging others and imposing what I thought was right upon them, my life turned around. I have a loooooong list of things where this applies, but this isn't the post for that.

I still struggle with the "right and wrong" side of things and Johnny and I have our own discussions on this. His stance never wavers. Nor does his love. What you people don't understand is that his love is the same for you as it is for me. As his girlfriend, I should be jealous that he feels the same love for Karen J as he does me!! But, I don't. I feel happy that he has that capacity. To love someone without judgment, expectation and condition is one of the hardest things to do. Very few have grasped this concept like him.

Don't mistake his honesty for judgment. Johnny's experience is mine and yours for the taking. He's not here to lead anyone astray. I have lived with him for nearly 5 years, and have not found a freedom greater than the one that's at his side. He was married to one of the most well known feminists/activists in our area before she died. If SHE can put up with him, there's hope for anyone. Sharma Oliver-Google it if you don't believe me.

I'm not some feeble, ignoramus who hasn't experienced anything outside of my little box. I've been around the block a few times, and have finally found a home with my dope. We open it to EVERYONE. Not just people who think like us.

My perspective? If you truly want to obtain the good you're trying to morally impose on people, just stop imposing. If it's good, it will remain on its own without your soap box. If it is illusion, it will feel shitty for as long as it remains an illusion. When your heart finally feels light and free of oppression you will know disillusionment.

 

This would be great advice if we were only talking about issues like religion, politics, sexual preference, personal interests, etc. I agree with you up to that point. But you're taking it much farther. Much too far. I have found it very important to associate myself only with those who have some basic level of respect for other people, their safety, their property, and their personal space. I'd say that at least 99% of the people I encounter on a daily basis seem to agree with this.

There are lines that should never be crossed. But I have a problem with people who draw the line too high, which can (and does) turn people into conformist robots, and I have a problem with people who draw the line too low or not at all, which leads to chaos. I draw my line in the sand much lower than the average American does, which would cause most of them to see me as ultra-liberal, socially. I guess to you, I'm too conservative.

I don't care much about traditional labels like right and wrong. I'm not opposed to armed robbery because it is "wrong". I'm opposed to it because it's a bad idea, and I don't want to be a victim of it. People can call it whatever they want; it just needs to stop.

I'm opposed to any action that intentionally creates a victim, by the common definition of that word.

I'm sure it is. I don't have that goal for myself, and I don't expect it from others. I like knowing that my boyfriend has some standards and expectations for me, and he finds that I meet them. That's not to say that I never make a mistake and need his forgiveness. But if I didn't find his expectations to be reasonable, I wouldn't be living with him.

I find that all forms of love are conditional, to an extent. Again, different people draw the line in different places.

Life without boundaries and minimum expectations is highly unnatural, and a dysfunctional idea. I wish you luck with it, because you're going to need it. When little or nothing is expected of people, over time, their behavior tends to go downhill. It's just human nature.

Whenever I encounter someone who has "discovered" some profound truth that just happens to lie in direct opposition to every basic thing I have ever learned about life, and he wants to "enlighten" others while disregarding or discrediting all other points of view, I am not going to have anything good to say about it. Label my reaction whatever you want, but I call these things as I see them.

I suppose the most unique thing about this thread for me is that I encountered someone who was able to make me look like a social conservative, by comparison. It's been a damn long time since anybody did that.

 

All anxiety is caused by the misapprehension of what is so. Nothing real can be threatened. The truth does not call for correction, but if you desire to be unaffected by what is false then it requires acceptance and is available.

 

What condition prohibits love, but hate?

 

Isn't this the philosophy and religion thread? Hard for me to recognize since I really only like to troll the porn threads. I'm such a perv!!!:2thumbsup:

Oh Honey, I did not discover anything except for true happiness. Johnny has NEVER preached to me. If he talks and I actually feel like listening then I learn if I want to. The difference between he and I though, is that he cares more about other peoples' happiness than I do. I'm a shit or get off the pot kinda person, and don't have time to wait around for "victims". I devote more time to looking forward than behind. I have not chosen ignorance, merely an alternate brain pattern from the average sheep. It just so happens that trying something different from the norm actually worked. The conditions of love you have are yours because you chose them. Enjoy.

You are way wrong about a chaotic lifestyle here. It's quite the opposite. There isn't chaos because there's no judgment. Sure we have our own daily problems arise, but it's nothing we're going to turn our backs because we're too soft to handle it. You're mistaken if you think I'm going to roll over and let you kick me, though. We are not pussies who get walked on because we have no standards. We're two very strong HUMANS who have everything we could possibly want or need because we love and are very loved in return. Allies are waaaaaay different than friends, and there is a difference between discernment and judgment. Our lives are full of friends from all walks of life from bio scientists to baristas and Secular Humanists to homeless sex addicts we know them all. None of these people are unworthy of love, unless we choose to judge them so.

I noticed that you think you've discerned Johnny to be a moral pervert with the lowest of standards, but you merely just judged it so due to lack of knowledge. Your ideas have not been discredited by anyone but the truth. If there's no truth in thedope's, or my words then how can you be discredited or disregarded? Standards are just preferences. I prefer peanutbutter chocolate, others like vanilla.

I didn't make you look socially conservative. It's plainly obvious in your writings that you do that on your own. I'm very sorry that the truth is so vicious, but what really IS vicious is being pigeon holed by someone due to their ignorance. My friends that write the Secular Humanist Press are very socially conservative, too, so maybe it's a training in that lifestyle? I don't know. I got out because sitting in judgment over others makes me very uncomfortable. It's sort of like church. l noticed that you haven't even clicked on our profiles to see our faces and a small portion of life outside of the hipforums. What religious affiliation are you again? Oh you're not affiliated??? I would have never guessed by how judged I feel by you. Fortunately for me, there's more to my life than this internet conversation and judgment of my life with Johnny. If you think that there haven't been shitty times throughout our lives, you're wrong. We just don't sit and whine and cry about it and play victim. The longer you do that, the less you live. Plus, if there are no victims, the sales in self help books go waaaaay down and the populous wavers and chaos ensues!!! :willy_nilly:

Ok, so that last sentence was a bit sarcastic, but imposing moral code is a brainwashing in and of itself, IMHO.

I like your sig, by the way, Karen J. Words to live by.

 

:cheers2: We both play on the same team here; 85% of my posts are in L&S.

I know. That's what I did too.

You shouldn't be taking everything I say so personally. I don't know you or your bf personally. I'm attacking what he has posted in this thread, which is fair game. Read my last post again and see if you can see that. I make very few direct references to you in it. You haven't pissed me off.

Okay, so our tastes in men are very different. So what? Life goes on.

But some folks (not referring to anybody in particular) need to be receiving that love in an institutional setting. My opinion.

Okay then, my "preference" is not to be raped and murdered tonight. I already said that we can use whatever terminology that you like. It's all the same to me. I'm just looking for the end result.

:rofl: You may have a bright future as a comedy writer! I know some people who are going to fall out of their chairs when they read that quote.

I have to wonder how much you know about real conservatives. I could tell you a lot of stories, but I would get bored and depressed writing them up. I prefer not to think about that stuff too much.

I did go there, not that it matters in a conversation about important things.

 

And angry emotions can be set gently aside when their sponsoring thought, guilt, is dismissed.

 

I am so glad you asked. We live in a world of condition. Each condition takes two to exist. You may call the force that causes condition to appear, male and female each according to their kind. In a battle, while it appears there is an aggressor and defender, their roles are in fact interchangeable. They are both vital constituents of the battle. If one is absent, no battle ensues. Some other condition may exist, but not the battle.
What we resist, persists.

How does that work exactly?

Why would I accept what I do not find to be true. There is no other. We are an agglomerate.

It renders the complaint moot. We cannot be in jeopardy by virtue of an illusion. We do not bring truth to make illusion real. we perceive the truth and that dispels the illusion, unless of course you have not made the choice because it is true, but have made the choice because it sounds appealing or for any other of a number of reasons that may wax and wane in importance.

That is just the point. We do not speak with a consistent voice on this issue.

What improper actions would you accuse me of?

In all of your hurrying around, has anything ended? Infinite patience brings immediate results.

My complaint against the world.

We have a natural inclination towards our own good based on our model of what that good is. If that model can be shown to be deficient in the fact that we have not perceived our good or considered it for any reason to be absent, then we have not seen what is real, for reality surely supports it's constituents. First remove the log from your own eye, then you can see how to help.


The eye is the lamp of the body, if the eye be sound, the whole body will be full of light.

I am speaking to anyone who believes in evil, or immorality.

And therefore arbitrarily defined, which is not a definition at all but an ongoing adjudication.

To say someone is bad or wrong, to have a complaint about reality is to condemn. The world appears to us, as we describe it. However it exists quite well without description.

 

Therein is also the point. Helpful is a matter of timing, not of moral certitude.

There is a difference between saying the world is burning and there is a fire in the corner. If you tell yourself that there are disparate motives in the world, you will become suspicious of everyone at any time.

Harm has no face.

 

I can go for the present day American myth that society (not even by Obama) shall continue with its Morals indifferent to religious free expression and voodoo type Virtue conscience. And vice is not the opposite of virtue here, let it be known. The society will leave perfect conscience of peace and tolerance of humanity to the religions, for unfree activity of love of the common God.


The church is responsible wholly by it's needs for the common good and trust by the whole of mankind. It is the church that will decide the peace of the world on it's own regard of the wicked and insane masses.

 

No I am not saying that an attack is not made. What I am saying is the "attack", is a function of the desire for good. Your premises are confused. If we are part of something that lives forever, then we cannot be annihilated. Which is true, are you part of something that lives forever, or can you be annihilated?

What I am saying is if you want things to be different in the future, you need make a different choice in the present. I am saying that what we resist persists. A good defense is to surround yourself with unconditional positive regard.

I'll tell you a story from my age six. I lived in a house with an extended family that included children of varying relations to each other. There was an authority with a belt who would use that belt to discipline the whole group for whatever the days offenses might have been. When he would come home from work he would line the kids up and one by one would proceed to beat them. One day I was last in line and I watched as each took their turn and invariably they would kick and scream and squirm trying to get away form the blows. When it became my turn I had come to terms with my own fear of what was going to happen. I knew it was inevitable because I had been here many times before. But this day I simply bent over a waited for my punishment and the guy with the belt and those others around the room were aghast and he said with surprise, this is going to hurt and I said I know. He gave me two hard swats and from that day forward he never hit me again.

The bar magnet has lines of force running from the negative to positive pole or vice versa. It is not opposite poles attracting, It is the marrying of congruent lines of force. So instead of one magnet you have two becoming one, the flow of energy going from negative to positive across both magnets.
So the connection between the magnets is north to south or south to north, but that does not represent an attraction of opposites but an attraction of congruent force.

Male and female again are not opposite but complimentary. Same with yin and yang etc.

Matter has three properties, absorptive, reflective, and polarity. Polarity is the congruent direction of flow between the two poles. Matter is not in a state of opposition with itself. Nor is reality in a state of opposition with itself.

Form is defined by negative space. It is what you do not see of yourself that give the impression that you are separate. Some say we forget where we come from in order to be here. To take onto ourselves that which we are not in order to give perspective or tactility to what we are. I think it more we are mesmerized through education to believe we are something we are not. We are taught to look for conformity rather than discover what is there. It is a type of mass hypnosis, to be cultured. You are individual, but that individuality is not separate. I am of a species for my similarities, not my differences.

It is real to the extent that you believe it so. All illusion is upheld by belief.
"If you believe and do not doubt you may cause a mountain to pick itself up and through itself into the sea." We see to believe and we believe to see. You fashion the corridors of refraction that appear to you. The eyes record nothing but "reflected light". We then make sense of the record of our senses.

The I am I call myself is the same I am you call yourself. The differences are like the sun sparks on the ocean but the whole of it is we are all the ocean.

When you see a flock of birds, you don't notice right off their individual characteristics or "personal foibles". Those emerge over a temporal order, in time. The point of being human is to learn how to create. We are dealing in some ways with a miscreant effect, that is we dreamed a dream of separation.
We see ourselves figures in a dream but have forgotten that we are the dreamer.

Thus the call to awaken.

Be back.