am i selfish?

Hold on, that could be very disrespectful, if that moose ended up dieing for the freedom of canada!

 

I agree with your first statement... but, i don't believe i'm a "cocky fuck" i never said they would have a harder time than me, i never once said i thought it would be easy, i'm just saying, they call the Canadian military weak, so i'm telling them maybe they should actually see what its like before they judge? And i was assuming nobody here is/was in the in the military, but maybe they were/are, how am i to know?

 

That may be true, and i'm aware of this, i'm not completely ignorant. But there have been actual important wars in the past, where people did in fact die for a cause, and i'm assuming there will be more wars like this in the future, knowing the chaos and corruption in our world

 

Knowing the chaos and corruption in our world, you choose to join the army of a corrupt western nation involved in creating that chaos?

I don't think this makes you a freedom fighter, like some of those who have died while being misled. This makes you as bad as the guys ordering you to die for that cause.

 

well, if you don't like what our countries do, why don't you go live with the fuckin' terrorists? Just sayin...

 

No, you're not just sayin', you're just making a fool of yourself.

Because the only reason that terrorists exist is because of the policy choices of our governments. The government does not represent the people, it simply tricks the people into thinking that it represents their interests so they don't have to think about it.

There would BE no terrorists if we'd tried to help the middle east, not occupy it, for the last century. You will be a part of the problem, a part of what makes people want to attack your homeland.

And it is VERY selfish to be an evil mercenary because you fucked up and can't go to college after getting the grades of a mentally retarded water buffalo, instead of engaging in a legitimate trade or line of work that actually benefits your country. You fucked up and would have to work for a future that doesn't hurt others, or you can do nothing but run through an obstacle course and do some cardio work, and get paid and benefits for being an evil fucker..... So you knowingly choose evil.... SO selfish that you will support your evil government in acting against your country's people's best interest, and other foreign people's best interest, for your best interest and the best interest of the NATO military industrial complex.

Just sayin'.

 

You don't think we help the middle east? You think the only reason they're violent is because of us? No, they are plenty violent on their own... Take the Hindus and Muslims for example, they've been killing each other for no reason since day once, hence the creation of Pakistan, it used to be a part of India but they had to create a seperat country because the two religious groups couldn't live together, and who helped them with this? The British, and what about Isreal? It was invaded by Egypt the day after its creation, and has been invaded every decade since (up until the 60's i think) and what about Isreal and Lebenon? They've been fighting since Isreals creation aswell, they they STILL are at war to this day... America has sent troops over there to STOP the violence between these countries many times in the past (i'm unsure if they still currently do) And what about us helping stopping saddam hussein, Gaddafi, Osama Bin Ladin?

And I didn't "fuck up" in school, i simply don't attend as often as i should, i don't WANT to go to colledge or university, i'm just not that type of person, if i happen to not join the military i'll simply join a trade, and take specific training in that... And i don't consider the military to be evil... now i know there is some corruption in it, obviously, as with any military... But they do some good to, helping to rebuild nations after a disaster, building homes and schools, wells, giving toys to the children of third world countries... its not all shooting down "bad guys" sure thats a part of the job, but if it helps keep people safe... then so be it

 

Of course you're a fuck up, you just said it yourself, you didn't go to school and got shit grades because you want to join up and kill people, instead of doing good for the world. You say you don't consider this being a fuckup, but I'm applying logic to what you say, instead of feelgood ideas about just not being cut out for college.

No, I do not think we help in the middle east.

They are violent on their own, as are americans and others. However, modernization and education, on their own, fight extreemism. Us continuously blowing people up has not helped, food WOULD, it's pretty hard to recruit people to fight those infidels when they're dropping food and books on your starving country, as opposed to cluster bombs.

The british royally fucked shit up, as part of this western coalition of east-raping. They and their empire fucked up india and mesopotamia and other places, and started them out pissed off at us. When you conquer places to exploit their populations and resources, they hate you pretty fuckin' quick (read orwell's short story on shooting an elephant). Those fuckers just thought they could get away with anything, because they didn't predict the shrinking of the globe and explosion of travel, where these countries might be able to hit BACK.

We fucked with egypt for a long time, the US/british created israel, where NO JEWS STILL LIVED, of course it caused problems in an islamic place. The USA CREATED OSAMA BIN LADIN, as part of a stupid proxy war with the soviet union, and then decided to ignore what we'd created. We also ignore everything that saudi arabia does, including their current active sporsoring of terrorism against the US, because they're our oil pimps.

We put saddam and his baath party in power, literally. He was exiled and going to die, and the CIA loaded him and his cronies on a plane and flew them back from egypt to iraq, and claimed it for him.

We use all these brutal regimes to our own benefit, like using them to torture people and pretending we don't know what's going on ("extraordinary rendition"). But then we pretend we have no idea what's going on when something goes down, and just attack them to support our war machine.

We have US predator drones killing people with no trial or anything else, for that matter, daily, in countries with NO declared war, with NO authority to act. We recently violated iran's airspace while pretending we "lost" a predator (bullshit, they obviously kept flying it or it would have.... STOPPED FLYING. the thing's got cameras, GPS, radio, and probably other means of tracking) and who knows what else with them.... Oh yeah, we used them to assassinate a US citizen with no trial or anything else.... Just "trust us, he's a baddie".

Now, am I largely talking about the US? Yes, and canada is just following the US. The whole western coalition is doing the same thing, with the same goals, in the same ways.

If we'd spent a hundred years dropping food and books and not playing politics, this would not be happening. We've done what we're doing today, and we will have no choice but to escalate as they escalate, and they will have no choice but to escalate in response to us escalating, because we're the ones escalating in THEIR fucking country. Osama attacked in the US after we set him up to defend islam by way of terrorism, and then placed our troops in islam's holiest places. THAT is what 9.11 was for.

You can give all the toys you want, but the fact is that you're still the reason they don't have food or drinking water, and their homeland is a toxic dump of depleted uranium and lead and undetonated ordinance and chemical weapons and who knows what else.

The only way that this will end without nuclear tragedy for the us (russia has a lot of unguarded nukes, iran's making em, etc) and west in general (remember, the only thing seperating you from us is an imaginary line on a map, radiation doesn't follow lines) is if we STOP this aggression and start making amends.

And you're all set to join up. Why are you on a hippie forum, again?

Did I miss anything?

 

I didn't say i wanted to "join up and kill people" I do want to join the military, but not for the reasons you listed... You do make valid points though, i'm not the one trying to argue here, i'm attempting to be as polite as i can, you are the one that keeps telling me i'm an evil fuck up who wants to murder people... How is any other job better? there is no job that is good for the world, pretty much all businesses destroy the environment, forests, oceans, lakes, pollution in general... so there is no doing "good for the world"

I do agree with SOME things you say, but many things are just theories... you have your ideas, i have mine... I personally don't believe the military is as bad as you claim it to be, sounds to me as if you have no personal experience in it (i'm not saying i do) I'll let you know what its really like after i join...

and a hippie forum? i'm sure 90% of the people here aren't actual hippies... i'm here because i like marijuana and psychedelics, what teenager wouldn't? I'm here to read about stories, and have a good time posting, not to debate politics and war...

 

No, there a lot of jobs that are sustainable and/or don't hurt a damn thing. Dunno where you got THAT idea.

The things I'm talking about are not theories, what ones are, according to you? the fact that we set up the middle east and their resentment through empire building and violence, which we (presumably) thought would never come back to bite us in the ass? The fact that we set up saddam, and osama, and many others? The fact that we're responsible for iran's fundie backlash because we set up the puppet shaw(I didn't mention that one, but that too)? The fact that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar? The fact that our wars in the middle east have killed, directly and indirectly, hundreds of thousands of people, while destroying priceless artifacts, farmland, infrastructure, and simply ruining lives, even if not killing the owner of the life in question?

I don't know what part you think is a theory, those are all cut in stone, cold hard facts.

You want to join the army. You are talking about signing up to murder people. We have established (see above) that the war is not legitimate and should not be waged as it currently is, therefore, those fighting it are murderers, if they know better. Some go to defend their country, but you know better, so if you join up, this makes you a murderer. And if you are providing support for those pulling the trigger, you are still associated, just like the getaway car driver type of situation.

We established following orders when one knows those orders to be wrong to NOT be acceptable at the end of WWII. You know they're not acceptable, so if you follow them and kill or enable killing, you're a murderer. Simple as that.

Oh, and your murder could also result in the riling up of tensions in the middle east, causing the deaths of your own countrymen. That's closer to treason than murder, as far as I'm concerned.

Friends don't let friends do evil, regardless of nationalistic excuses.

 

Technically its impossible for any business to be 100% eco-friendly, its just impossible. Even if they manufacture 100% eco-friendly products (which is also nearly impossible) building the building and machines in the first place would do harm, so... it is impossible. (but this is a completly different topic) anyways....

I understand what you mean though, some could consider it murder, but if there is a legitimate terrorist organization looking to do harm (even if our governments provoked its creation) i wouldn't consider it murder killing them, before they kill us. I understand that the government has done some evil things, and most likely still currently is, but that doesn't mean i don't want to fight for my country, there ARE terrorist organizations out there, that DO need to be stopped, even if you claim we created this... now we have to stop what we've created... I know that no matter what i say, you are going to have some comeback to it, these are just my thoughts, you obviously have different ones... i'm not saying i don't agree with you, a lot of things you've said i agree with, but theres also other things i believe in obviously, which is where we differ

 

You can't fight fire with fire, unless you want a bigger fire.

Especially with the role of religion in the whole thing, if you kill one, two pop up. And if anyone's tanks rolled down YOUR street daily, you'd be planting IED's, TOO, and you KNOW it. You'd be a coward NOT to blow them up if they occupied your country. And you'd want to take the fight to them. They're only doing what's natural when provoked.

But, the fact that they HAVE been provoked doesn't mean you can suddenly start fighting them without causing further provoking. You simply can not win. Even if some people had to die before they realized we're not fighting them anymore, it would be fewer than WILL die while we fight an unwinnable war.

About companies, nothing is 100% eco friendly, but I said SUSTAINABLE. If you don't rape it ALL the way, the environment can offset SOME of what you do, and that's called sustainable, when you work within the means of what can be repaired, and actively work to keep any damage you cause offset (or more than offset). It's very possible, and there's lots of folks that run sustainable businesses.

One thing that's not sustainable is using oil outta the ground. Outta middle eastern ground. Driving frugally with clean burning engines and fuel made from things like hemp could be totally sustainable. Just for instance.

 

So, you just want us to back out of the war, remove all our defences, and just sit here and wait to be attacked? if we leave there, leaving behind no weapons or troops, meaning no way to protect ourselfs, i'm sure they WILL take advantage of our vulnerability and attack us, here. I'm not saying i want to keep this war going on forever, i'm saying we should slowly, over time, start bringing our troops back, solving some issues, NOT causing new ones... Like i've said a billion times, I don't completely 100% agree with our government, but i will support it, if nobody fought, we wouldn't be a country today...

think about it, these soldiers out there that you are criticizing, are out there risking their life (or are dead) for your freedom, if nobody fought for our country, you wouldn't be sitting there in your home on your computer, able to write down your opinions and freedom of speech...

And ah i see, okay yes i agree with the sustainability thing and realize there are much more environmentally friendly things that could be used instead of oil, but large corporations obviously aren't willing to give up oil anytime soon...

 

A very small portion of our armed forces are involved in conflicts around the world.. The military is imo, a cake making school. Its not like college.. Its a career that writes itself into just about any job you really want.. You want to fly an air craft, learn this skill for FREE..
I was a missile technician - an electrician. None of the armaments are assembled by me. They build these in factories here and there. Machinist making $10.00hr build more parts for rockets, missiles and other weaponry.. You cant lay that hippie bullshit on a tye dyed solider. I know what my duties were in the army. I didnt have to kill anyone- either or, but we prepared plenty of things that actually killed .. So do car manufactures. Any manufacturer of material used in battle, is as guilty as those that kill with them..

 

Honestly no, I think the last war we fought to protect ourselves was WWII. And yes, then we did have no choice, we fought the good fight, and saved the world..... but the painful part is that even if it was NOT our fault (as the middle east is) we could have easily avoided it many times over, we set it up with the unjust WWI.

Yes, drawing out slowly seems like the way to do it, but just think about it for a second: How do people react differently if you take out your oppressive occupying troops slowly, instead of all at once? I can't see a more POSITIVE reaction, at the very least.

I don't think we should pull out all at once, OR slowly. I think we need to change the whole focus of the "war" and occupation. Yes, most combat troops should be removed. But they should be immediately replaced with people who can do the jobs that are needed, and people who can behave (Ie. blackwater, or whatever they changed their name to, should NOT be allowed anywhere near ANY developing country). These are things like teachers (and for this we need bi or tri or quad-lingual teachers, which are hard to come by, because we have fought, instead of making friends and learning languages) and actual sanitation workers and scientists of all sorts and agriculture experts and decontamination experts and doctors and surgeons and more, in every field. People who can teach the people to make something of themselves. And as people learn the science behind how the world works, religion becomes less and less important. Religion is marginalized when people have what they need, and do not need to appeal to a god(a god who wants them to blow up their enemies, (which we are, given what we've done to them) and will give them virgins and melons for doing so).

Religion is caused by desperation, or at least, a very different kind of religion is caused by desperation than is caused by plenty. India, as you said, developed it's own religions, based around things like abundant weed. Left to their own devices, they could be very peaceful. But islam was a desert religion developed by a camel jockey, of course it deals with aggression and stealing what you want and killing people for what you need. And islam moved into india, and india was plunged into poverty by the british, and of course violence erupted between the now desperate hindus and muslims.

So yeah, the only thing that could actually help in the long run, I am quite convinced, is to have some balls and say maybe we'll lose for a while, but we'll win the hearts and minds in the long run, instead of the firefight in the short term. If you kill them today, their brother will kill you tomorrow, as has been the custom for thousands of years there (They don't even see this occupations as drawn out, this is like vietnam, it's not our culture of instant gratification, they'll fight us for THOUSANDS OF YEARS and be ready for more) but if you teach them to read and be healthy and happy today, in a week they'll be our friends (note: slightly short times have been used for the sake of illustration).

And would we send in a surge of doctors and teachers with no troops? No, we would withdraw any troops with behavioral problems or aggression problems, and that sort of thing, and then replace them with civilian workers. We would need some just to help keep the peace for the time being, because we DID topple/destabilize/undermine the government(s), and need to keep too much of a power vacuum from occurring. But that's only as damage control for what we already broke. And after a time, there would be no need for those troops. With a proper seed of modernization planted in these countries, and an active exchange program to get students into the US, AND US students over there, to academically link them with us, we could really get things done.

.....Hell, we could start giving work visa's to mexican immigrants, with no requirements or waiting list, to go rebuild the middle east.

But this is NOT what's happening, the military industrial penis is being stroked at the cost of the future of the planet. And I think it is WRONG to join a military that is stroking that penis. It doesn't send the right message to those in power, it shows them that they can still recruit and the public either agrees or can be bought out.

 

Front line infantry!

 

I never understood why anyone would ever want to join the military unless there was a serious war going on that directly affets you.

 

$$$

 

you can always put your tent up on the lawn of a bank, and pretend like your really doing something for society..

 

Uh... I live in the US.. I DO live with the terrorists... That's why I will not join their terroristic army or support them