Questions regarding the MDMA experience from an MDMA-naive person

Hi. You will probably recognize my name from my nearly constant posting in the "Opiates", "Other Drugs", and "Pharmaceuticals" subforums. However, I rarely venture outside of those forums simply because my drugs of choice fall into those categories.

However, I find all psychoactive compounds interesting, and I have some general questions about MDMA. First of all, I want to make it clear that I have no intention of trying this substance. It just doesn't really appeal to me. That doesn't mean that I don't think it is fascinating though.

Questions:

1. I seem to hear people associate MDMA use with extreme energy levels usually accompanied by dancing. Why is this? MDMA is a serotonin and dopamine releasing agent primarily. Now, I take Dextroamphetamine all of the time, and even when I am high as a kite on it, I never feel compelled to dance or move about more than usual. D-Amph is also a serotonin and dopamine releasing agent, but more potent towards the dopamine end of the spectrum. Is it the serotonin aspect of MDMA that causes the psychomotor excitation? I don't see why it would be, pharmacologically speaking, though. I have read a few prominent psychopharm. books and have not found an answer yet.

2. Is there or is there NOT a psychedelic aspect to the MDMA experience? Explain it to me if there is. Again, all I can go on is pharmacology since I have never taken this drug. The only candidate for psychedelia is a mild partial agonist effect on the 5-HT2A receptors (which all psychedelics share). But it is far less than things like LSD. Also, MDA (the metabolite of MDMA) is a bit stronger of an agonist to 5-HT2A. But, just subjectively, what is the deal with the psychedelia? I hear some people claim none. Others claim a rich visual experience.

3. Is this drug reinforcing? I never really hear about people addicted to MDMA. My reasoning is that since it is just as potent a serotonin releaser as a dopamine releaser, the serotonin release dampens the dopamine's ability to reinforce (this is a fact that all psychopharm texts admit to). But I could be wrong. Do you personally feel addicted to the drug physically OR psychologically? Explain your answer for me to get a better understanding.

4. Empathy- let's finish the discussion with the oh-so-famous empathy gained on MDMA. I mean, pharmacologically speaking, it makes plenty of sense really. Combine Dopamine release and stimulation of 5-HT1A (which releases Oxytocin) and there you have it. But how does it stack up against other empathogens? For example, I find opioids to be very empathogenic. I genuinely care about hearing peoples' stories on low doses of opioids. The same with D-Amph. Low doses make me keen on getting to really know people (high doses might make me too sketchy to socialize a lot). But tell me about your own experience.

Thanks for your input. I have just always been curious about this drug. And I am also curious WHY it is one drug that I have never had an interest in. I mean, I like opioids, stimulants, psychedelics, Cannabis (less than the others), and depressants (less than the others). But I never really think about this drug.

Thanks for educating me on the 'human' side of the story, since I already know the psychopharmacological side of the story.

 

1- I guess because it makes music sound so amazing it just makes you wanna dance.

2- I had a slight visual while on mdma once, it was a moderate dose. I hallucinated the 'joker' from dark night while in my room. I dont know why it happened though.

3- When i first started doing ecstasy I think i may have been psychologically addicted to it. The day after i would ususally feel like crap but than when the nex week came around I wanted to do it again. This went on for several months but I eventualy lost my connections and havent done it in almost a year. i was never physically addicted to it though.

4- It made me all lovey dovey and i was never mad at anybody while on it. I even apologized to people for stuff whom i hated while on it. I would talk about anything while on it and gladly listen to people talk about anything, no matter the subject.

If i get the chance i will do this drug again probably. Hope some of my info helps, if you ahve anymore questions or want me to be more specific just ask

 

I can't speak in regards to the pharmalogical aspect but I feel music much more in my body than I do on other amphetamines or even something like 2ci. It causes these rushes that I can only associate with rollercoasters where you feel this rise with the music in like your temples as it builds up and then when the beat drops I tend to feel a surge down my body. Somehow I have a better sense of timing and perhaps coordination than other psychedelics as well probably due to the amphetamine aspect of MDMA, which gives an immeadiacy to the experience. So the disinhibition effects of MDMA coupled with the perceived sensations make it a great dancing drug.

Well it effects individuals differently. MDMA is structurally similar to mescaline and I find it's only slightly more potent than mescaline which has a minimum hallucinogenic range of 200 mgs, so I think many people who don't find MDMA psychedelic at all are simply not dosing high enough. Much of the literature in the past for like new age communities and psychotherapeutic use recommend doses of 100-150 mgs for MDMA, as where I dose 250 mgs usually. It's not a 'rich' visual experience compared to say LSD but it does cause lights to glow, occasional trails, and these little circular dots (Phosphenes?) appear in front of the eyes sometimes, also the physical feelings are incredibly psychedelic. It's more than just feeling 'good', like having your ears rubbed while closing your eyes can take you to these ineffable realms, and I can dance myself into a trance more easily on MDMA than any other drug and I feel as if my being is dissolving into the music and the crowd.

The unique serotonin aspect makes it less reinforncing than say crystal meth but there is a potential for habitual use. From what I have witnessed over the years it seems a good amount of people will use it regularly for about a year or so and then it loses some of 'the magic' and people tend to not find it as enjoyable as much and often move on to drugs that are more overt in whatever MDMA effects they desire, like move on to either more stimulating drugs like crystal meth, or more hallucinogenic like LSD. Also Ecstasy is commonly adulterated as you know and I have known a few people to completely stop using Ecstasy after an experience or two with suspect pills.

I have not found the slightest sense of empathic effects from opiods to be honest. In fact I cussed one of my roommate out when I was on Oxycontin and I don't even remember doing so, but you are not the first person to mention that about opiods, I suspect opiods carefree empathic qualities are more akin to alcohol rather than MDMA. Methamphetamine and cocaine are different in that I can talk my ass off but it seems a very ego-centric type of 'chattiness.' MDMA boosts confidence like other amphetamines but it has the unique action of softening ego so I can approach a total stranger with a smile and we can talk like we have known each other for years and I just don't find that to be the case with other more traditional stimulants. In fact with a high enough dose of many stimulants, I tend to get paranoid and uncomfortable of unfamiliar people. I also learn much about people I have known for awhile on MDMA and I find the bonding qualities incredible.

 

1. I honestly feel that its not the MDMA that makes you dance, but simply the music and atmosphere. Sure the euphroria accompanied by the MDMA makes the music appear to make you dance more but I have been to plenty of shows not rolling and have felt like I was rolling, this has happened to me nearly every show I go not rolling, I usually describe the effect as a "conscious" roll with the people and music around me. I have also rolled at home while doing everyday activities and have not had increased desires to dancing.

2.To date I personally have only had a few psychedelic experiecnces while on MDMA, on a single occasion that I can recall, I was rolling in the backseat of a friends car in a corner store parking lot. I had been looking out the window and the parking lot had started to turn into a free flowing liquid, this was only for a brief moment in time though, maybe only 5 minutes. I have had a most pleasant experience in combining MDMA with a dosage of psilocybin mushrooms. This made for a mushroom experience in which I had never experienced before. Giving me very intense visuals which almost reminds me of a DMT experience in which I had broke through into another universe. Also the enhanced glow of lights and the trails.

3.I have not had any addiction to MDMA what so ever. I feel that most drug addictions and overdoses are caused by the misimformatio of drugs. I feel that if one is highly educated on the drug, ie;proper dosages,effects,how to properly use,dangers if not properly use. One would be able to use the drug more responsibly. MDMA has actually a great abilty to be used as a medical drug if used properly. Also it has been found to cure cancer

Here is a great article on the medicinal aspect of MDMA.


4. Yeah deffinetly helps in being social, I would'nt say makes me yap non stop but helps break alot of social anxiety. I guess I have felt annoyed on drug but never mad...

 

Thanks for the great responses everyone! I am starting to get a picture of what the MDMA experience is like now. I have to admit, the drug made no sense to me before asking these questions. I just didn't 'get' why people would want to take it, but it seems like the combination of the 'serene' feelings with the lack of hard-core addiction, makes it desirable.

I plan on doing some more research into the mechanisms behind the 'rollercoaster'-like rush of happiness that you speak of. I find that feeling very special and have never experienced it on any drug. It is one of those amazing feelings that I have only had while stone-cold-sober.

As for the ego-softening, that sounds like a nice experience. It is a shame they don't use this drug in psychotherapy anymore. I could probably really benefit from it since when I go to therapy, I feel like I am in a 'war' with the therapist to make sure they think I am just as smart as them. It is hard to describe, but, nonetheless, it is hard to make much progress with that.

As for opioids being empathogenic, I think it is not an automatic effect. Just like euphoria is not directly a consequence of psychedelics, but that many people find them immensely euphoric, I feel that some people find opioids incredibly ego-softening. Others feel very self-centered and isolated. For me, opioids completely alter my hard-core mountain of an ego. They actually allow me to be patient enough to listen to people, BUT more importantly, they let me actually FEEL the emotions of other people and allow me to feel emotions as well, which normally doesn't happen. I have actually cried on opioids before. Not because I was sad, but because I read something sad or unfair and I felt so strongly for the people involved.

That is an effect that I NEVER experience other than that. I am either sober or jacked up on amphetamines, so I never really feel much emotion for other people. But I have read (I'll try to post some sources...) that opioids, in SOME people, allow for very strong empathogenic and ego-softening experiences. In fact, now that I think about it, that might be the main reason I like opioids. Not because they 'numb' my emotions like they stereotypically do to most people (picture a greedy junkie), but because they actually allow me to FEEL emotions.

Sorry to ramble. But it is interesting. MDMA seems like a great substance. Still, I don't have a desire to take it, but I am starting to see why so many people love it. It is fun, good for your mental well being (if used responsibly), and has less addiction potential compared to things like amphetamines, cocaine, and opioids. Interesting stuff.

 

Wouldn't the psychomotor stimulation be related to the adrenergic action of the drug more than anything serotogenic or dopaminergic?

The fact that you mentioned that Dextroamphetamine is closer to the dopamine end of the spectrum (don't know whether this is true or not) may explain why you do not feel as energetic as you might with the extra norepinephrine boost in MDMA.

 

It would be a combination of the Norepinephrine and Dopamine release. The two neurotransmitters are always modulated together. Norepinephrine autoreceptors (which are turned 'backwards' by releasing agents) also recycle dopamine, so if you modulate one, you modulate the other.

In my experiences, you are right, the MORE Norephinephrine-oriented the drug, the more psychomotor stimulation. For example, Adderall (which is 1/4 levo-amphetamine which is primarily adrenergic) makes me want to move around more than Vyvanse (which is 100% dextro-amphetamine, which is significantly more dopaminergic...). But still, it is rare to see a compound that is exclusively dopaminergic or exclusively adrenergic. At least in the case of CNS stimulants. Of course, peripheral stimulants can be entirely adrenergic.

So yes, you are right. But it is worth noting that the two transmitters work as a team most of the time in the brain.

 

Yes. I think if MDMA has a smaller dopaminergic role than Dextroamphetamine, that might explain the difference in motor effects (look at Parkinson's disease to see how drastic the effect of dopamine variation can be). Of course, we're talking about feeling like dancing, not motor effects. But combined with 5-HT agonism there might be a synergistic effect. I don't know if that's possible.

 

Yeah. It is a well-known fact that Serotonin Releasing Agents (like MDMA) have the capacity to dampen Dopamine Release via activation of the 5-HT2C receptor. If the ratio of SER to DA release is high enough, it can almost completely dampen the dopaminergic effects.

As for the 'dancing' thing. There must be some innate psychomotor stimulation if almost everyone who takes this drug feels like dancing. While disinhibition explains some of it, unless the person is experiencing some level of physical stimulation, they wouldn't keep dancing for hours on end.

Strangely enough, I never, ever get the desire to move around let alone dance on Amphetamines. I might have tics and tap my toe, but I definitely don't get up and move around more than I normally would. So that aspect must be due in large part to something other than the Catecholamine Release mechanism.

 

Yah as much as we understand drugs there seems to be alot we don't understand even about many of the more studied drugs. With MDMA and certain other drugs there seems to be a pharmalogical gestalt type effect where it's probably the whole interplay of pharmalogical action and levels that produces 'the magic' moreso than any specific neurotransmitter. Also MDMA benefits tremendously from setting and that is something you simply can't measure via pharmacology, MDMA at home alone reading a book and MDMA at a rave with lazers and a large portion of the audience also on it will provide two very different experiences where you may not even feel you are on the same drug.

MDMA still has been used for psychotherapy in recent years for select cases of vets with PTSD.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2004887,00.html

When it was legal in the 1970's and early 1980's it's psychotherapeutic use was geared more towards marriage counseling and terminal illness.

Yah that is interesting that opiates have that effect on you, most CNS depressants I have encountered seem to have slight empathogenic effects at low doses such as alcohol, those effects don't necessarily go away at higher doses but once that dose is taken up common reactions are people usually get completely numb, removed and detached from people and their surroundings, hostility is not uncommon either, not really qualities I associate with the term empathy. I know you rely on pharamacology and I guess that's a particular instance where your response defies what the expected response based on pharmaological action should be.

 

Yeah. Just going on pharmacology, the response of opioids as seen is pretty predictable really. You have two forces at play: an amazingly efficient mechanism for a cascade of Dopamine in the Nucleus Accumbens and also a great inhibition of corticosteroid stress hormones, a disinhibition of Oxytocin (by means of inhibiting the competing Cortisol mechanism), and profound focus because of prefrontal Dopamine activity (which is NOT a pleasure mechanism, just a mechanism to focus).

So as expected, if the individual's chemistry gears toward the massive Dopamine flux in the pleasure center, they will exhibit self-centered, egotistical behavior, often at the detriment of everyone but themselves. I think pre-existing personality has a lot to do with that as well. But for people like me, perhaps the anxiolytic and prefrontal sharpening mechanism prevails, coupled with being a genuinely nice person in general, and you get the empathogenic effect I describe. Opioids are very complicated pharmacologically speaking, and like you mention, can't be pre-determined by pharmacology alone. The individual psychology is just as important. For things like Amphetmine, this is not so much the case. Everyone pretty much feels like they are important, and wants other people to know about their important ideas. Even people who aren't selfish like myself get like that (like right now when I am bursting with enthusiasm to tell people about the 'cool' pharmacology I know about..). But that's because amphetamines act in a simple way.

Of course, even more complex and impossible to predict effects is with Cannabis IMO since it has such a weird, indirect pharmacology. If I was in court and had to testify to what 'stereotyped' behavior a given person would have on Cannabis, I could honestly not predict it, even with as much as I know of its mechanisms. There is too much individual variable as well as just plain ignorance to the complete pharmacology of the drug. The only drugs really pinned down pharmacologically speaking are things that act on on receptor or catacholamine releasers like Amphetamine. The more i read about the other stuff the more I realize we have a long way to go.

(Amphetamine-inspired ramblings...)

 

The matter of the fact is that no matter how much we learn about pharmacology and even learning more about possible variables such as personal psychology and settings certain drugs may thrive in, there is simply no substitue for direct experience. For instance, I can tell someone I'm going to go roll on MDMA at a Chemical Brothers show and they can rattle off the pharmalogical effects of MDMA off to me to a tee, then name the Chemical Brothers style of music and the setlist they will play that night and it will mean absolutely nothing compared to that experience.

Just because someone can bust out a geography text book and list all the dimensions, compositions, etc. that make up the grand canyon it's simply not the same as directly going to the grand canyon and experiencing it.

 

I agree, but I still think it is worth studying how these agents work, just because it is so fascinating! I mean, honestly, I can't think of a single drug I ever have taken that I would know how to "explain" to people. I remember being interested in pharmacology years ago but never having had a dopaminegic stimulant. I always wondered what they were like and when I first had a Ritalin tablet, it was totally unlike what I expected (much better...). But I still think it is a valuable tool, pharmacology that is. Plus it's a fun hobby. It is a nerdy fascination. There is the pre-contemplation where you know all about the pharmacology and make guesses as to how the agent will "feel." Then the hunt for the substance. Then once you take it, it always surprises you in some way.

 

Posting so I can find the thread later. I'll answer properly.

I think maybe you should try MDMA/LSD psychotherapy. I hadn't thought of this, and I know you don't have the sort of issues they'd normally be used to treat, but I think they could still help you work around the issues you do have.

*edit* to answer your questions....

1. It's largely setting. You can feel almost sleepy on MDMA. You won't fall asleep, but can feel like you might, until you try, if you know what I mean. Somewhat lethargic. But at the same time, amped and almost trapped by repetitive music, which leads to repetitive motion. It enhances tactile and audio sensations, and can give you a sense of rythm/flow, and it's an empathogen, and dancing is an emotional thing, so dancing/moving with others logically follows. As for alone, I found myself nodding, tapping, moving, but not wanting to outright dance. But I do that stuff sober too, just not that much.

2. It causes psychedelic style thought patterns, but not so dramatically as things like LSD. And it's further softened by comparison by how friendly and lovey it makes everything-it's hard to get scared or freak out. As for visuals, maybe mild disturbances at the doses I've had. I've heard tell of all sorts of things that just don't fit, like certain objects randomly changing colour, or even someone being in almost a dream state and thinking he was somewhere totally different, doing something totally different, and snapping out of it while walking up the front walkway at his other (real) destination. I assume this has something to do with prodding a memory, from how he described it.

3. People have been documented to have "addictions", but that's to street pills, I'm pretty sure it was mostly other amphetamines they would have been after, or simply release from the comedown. (A comedown which I've never felt, with three rather moderate, quite fun doses, the first several years before the second two, which where a few weeks apart. One pill each time) I greatly enjoy it, but there's no compulsion. Of course, when you're on a drug and it feels good, you want to keep feeling good and might consider re-dosing, but that's not the same as a compulsion or a drug being addictive or hard to handle. I have no problem thinking of MDMA, and thinking that I might like some, but have no cravings. So no, I'd say it's fun, but not addictive. I have considerably more serious self control issues with snickers bars (I speak literally, I've held onto MDMA for weeks on end, but never come close to that with a snickers).

4. I've never had amphetamine, I have had codeine, hydrocodone, and oxycodone. I think they make you feel good, and talkative, and you generally like everything and everyone because you feel good..... It's not the same thing at all. For one thing, opioids are NOT introspective in anywhere near the same way. You may feel good, but even on low doses, it's just numbing, so you can listen to problems from others maybe, or think about your own without pain, but you're not facing them. MDMA lets you examine your memories, thoughts, feelings, and those of others, with OUT removing pain, but instead a mildly psychedelic manner of thinking, coupled with pretty clear cognition (not foggy feeling) and a positive, ready/motovated feeling, it lets you not only think about things but tackle them, not deal with but fix them, etc.... if that makes sense.

All of this is talking about what has been reputed to be (reasonably) pure MDMA, one time in a liquid soaked into a piece of cotton in a gel cap, and the other two times with a crushed crystaline solid in gel caps, allegedly 120mg those times. One of those times I snorted 2/3rds of it and ate the other portion, the other times where oral only.

Sorry if this isn't a great reply, I just figured I should finish it before bed, since I think editing now has a time limit?

 

It's not stimulating like that, it may only appear that way as an outward appearance in someone who is really into the music/dancing/activity. The actual chemical stimulation is at most, moderate. Many people find MDMA to actually be quite sedating, I'm sure GB mentioned in his reply that he prefers caffeine with his molly, otherwise it's too sleepy. Of course you wouldn't be able to really sleep, and yes you'll be antsy and wanna blabber on and touch things but you're not on crystal meth or anything like that.

Rich visuals on MDMA? That doesn't sound like MDMA. Visuals yes, but mostly confined to brighter colors, more sparkly and vivid world . . . certainly nothing tryptamine like or even 2c-b/2c-e like in quality. It can cause some blurring which combined with everything kind of goes with the experience but that's from nystagmus. MDMA is emotionally psychedelic. Not alcohol, not opiates, not any other drug can open you up the way MDMA can, it reins supreme in the emotions department. Not saying LSD/etc aren't phenomenal at emotions, they just don't work on the same sphere as MDMA excels at. Your thought processes are almost unchanged additionally, it's a quite sober experience, you just can't believe that it's suddenly the best moment of the best day of your life!!!!

You can't be physically addicted due to tolerance, it would simply not work, and it's quite weak on the reinforcing front as you mentioned. With that said people get addicted to everything so yes there are people who can't stop using MDMA. There are TONS of people like this out there, they are called ravers

Personally MDMA is one of the rarest drugs I use even though I love it and I have it. For me the giant drawback is the serotonin crash I get afterwards, it's very draining on me, it's not easy on the body, it's on par with a heavy night of drinking and i don't even drink really

Again nothing will compare with the torrential deluge of empathy that MDMA drowns your world in you suddenly weep with all your heart for every wrong doing in the world and have the most driving urge to hug everyone you see because its going to get better some day you promise all your inhibitions fly out of the equation and you just bleed your heart out to complete strangers about things you weren't talking to yourself about 3 hours ago. it's really crazy! one sees the therapeutic value in it immediately

You should definitely try it since you like amphetamine if i recall correctly. I had a friend with schizoid problems who had a bad time on LSD but absolutely loved MDMA. It's very non-invasive into your psychological realm, really it's like a highly superior form of the ethyl alcohol high.

 

+ 1 to Roorshack's post, he touched on some elements I excluded

No you are incorrect, I use caffiene with MDMA because I enjoy the synergy it creates, like how some use Cannabis in conjuntion with LSD. Pure MDMA is plenty stimulating on it's own for me especially in the right settings, as I have mentioned before it doesn't become the most popular all night dance drug for the past 20 years without some stimulating properties. MDMA can be fairly relaxed at a home enviornment though but If molly is really sedating it may be a sign that you have mde or mbdb, there are a host of similar MDMA-esque chemicals that could probably fool novice users which has always been a big drawback. Writer you should probably learn to read what I say if you plan on speaking for me in your posts.

 

Some more amazingly insightful words of wisdom from some of my favorite HipForum-ers (RooRshack, MrWriter, and guerilla...). Here are some quick reactions to what was posted.

I think that I would definitely benefit from psychotherapy aided with MDMA or psychedelics. I have partaken in my own private psychedelic psychotherapy before. I obtained some quality 2C-I a year ago and have dosed probably 15 times, 3 of those times being very, very strong experiences. I really gained a lot from those experiences and (keeping with the theme of the thread) I really can't describe them in plain English. But one time, I insufflated 12mg and I had one of the most intense drug experiences of my life. It was 10 times more powerful than I expected, but I just rode the wave and had an incredibly insightful time.

I think, after reading this stuff, that I want to have another trip soon. I could use it now that I have entered a new point of my life story this past month or so. And now I can definitely say that MDMA is a drug I WOULD try. It sounds completely different than what I expected and much more valuable than I thought.

I found that the 2C-I worked quite well with my mental illness. Some of the things that most people would find scary didn't really frighten me since I have experienced so many horrifying things from my own psychoses. I was 'used to it' so to speak.

Thanks for all of the interesting takes on an interesting and certainly NOT straight-forward drug.