Why did God need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive sin?

Why might that be?

 

http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/why-did-jesus-have-die-our-sins

 

You make it sound like the latest fad going around the Mediterranean, but I can't think of a counterpart in that part of the world. For humans to sacrifice to the gods is nothing new, but for a god to sacrifice for us is unusual. What other examples do we have? Xipe Totec and Quetzalcoatl come to mind, but they were in another Hemisphere and were both associated with grizzly cults of human sacrifice.

The sacrifice-atonement idea was Paul's contribution, probably based on the Paschal lamb concept or the scapegoat that he borrows from Jewish tradition. In my opinion, it is best understood as a metaphor or myth, but one which is profoundly true. Sacrifice and atonement are deeply embedded in Jewish tradition, as well as the traditions of lots of other cultures. As a metaphor, I can accept vicarious atonement as an expression of the fact that we have sinful tendencies that we can't deal with without the intervention of a Higher Power to whom we are eternally indebted. We are, in the language of the recovery programs, powerless to do it ourselves. Atonement conveys the idea that, as a result of Jesus' example, we can overcome our sinful natures. And Jesus willingly paid the ultimate price for challenging the authority of the priestly and Roman authorities. Crucifixion went with the territory. We owe our salvation to His sacrifice, and it has liberated generations of humans from enslavement to sin. I know that contemplating His sacrifice has kept me from the wrong path on many occasions. We are divided by nature between our selfish needs and the demands of service to the greater good, and sacrifice is fundamental to reconciling this conflict--inspired by the God-given example of Jesus.

 

Sin isn't something that just needs to be forgiven. It leads to death. So God responded by doing the opposite of sin by selflessly giving his life.

On one side there's sin, selfishness, death and on the other sacrafice, selflessness and life. The contrasts couldn't be greater.

 

It could even be argued the other way, death (or the fear thereof) leads to sin. By conquoring death, Christ has transformed our own deaths not into something to fear but something that transforms and glrorifies us.

Rather than attonement, you can view it as a transformative action that changes the world itself.

 

Concur. Unless a kernal of wheat dies it remains a singe seed.

 

Jesus conquered death simply by beholding the truth. He demonstrated personal redemption through the act of forgiveness, "forgive them they know not what they do"
Our world suffers mans judgement against himself and in like kind his brother.
Why would this act of forgiveness restore us. Because it is the strength and power of the mind to create temporary conditions for ourselves. Jesus spoke specifically of this power of the mind to manifest itself in the world around you saying verily I say to you if you believe and do not doubt you can cause a mountain to pick itself up and throw itself into the sea. We are forgiven as we forgive. If we determine the world is evil then we populate our world with evil, it exists because we insist that it must.
The idea of sacrificing the son of god to restore man is a distortion. It is not what jesus taught. Specifically, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

So it is not an eye for an eye, that was specifically addressed and instead, christ called for the love of enemies and the prayer for those who persecute us.

It is not a fact of nature that our carefree days should seem so few and forever distant. There is no "law of nature", debt that needs to be paid. It means only that we had not learned to be free with our care, learning instead, to care more or less.

 

The "sacrifice-atonement" model of salvation is Saint Paul's contribution to Christian doctrine. His writings are our earliest scriptures in what has become the Christian canon, and were highly influential in shaping our idea of what it is to be Christian. Sacrifice was central to Jewish and pagan worship, and the metaphor of the Paschal Lamb, sacrificed at Passover, was a powerful metaphor, helping early Christians to explain how it is that the man they considered their Messiah could be crucified by the Romans. There were other competing traditions at the time that called themselves Christian, notably the Gnostics, who believed that Jesus' mission was our enlightenment and that (at least for some Gnostic sects) he did not really die on the cross but substituted some kind of double for the event. Muslims still believe this. But Paul's view prevailed. The notion of atonement for original sin was developed out of this concept by Saint Augustine, whose views were challenged by rivals like Pelagius. But Augustine's views also prevailed. (By prevailed, I mean that manuscripts with views contrary to his were not copied or were burned, and people who taught them were also burned). And I think that's why Christians believe these things today.

 

It is not always evil that sacrifices at least at the moment of sacrifice. How does History decide? If we observe the world without history, but only with time honored people behaving civilized as I think you mean with mercy, we observe that the sacrifices made by some were in vain for the wish that dreams be fulfilled by one and all together from the start.

My day is finished. As it began the lines of sacrifice were to realize I didn't have to be part of the collective when it was a matter of love. I'll read you later, Okiefreak.

 

This is gonna suck, not being able to post verses to illustrate.

This bothers me so much, because I see the crucifixion as the zenith of Judaism, and Judaism as the zenith of human-centered religion. Why didn't more ancient cultures grasp that blood sacrifices were necessary?

I see sin less as a conscious act than a natural instinct. Sin is just the creeping forward of a death already acquired. Thus "sin leads to death," acknowledge it or not. But all those other things you mention (selfishness, etc) are just other symptoms of the same disease, the same way lack of inhibition, loss of judgment, slurred speech, etc, are all symptoms of intoxication or that memory loss, mental fatigue, etc are symptoms of alzheimer's or dementia.

 

Actually, if you slaughter a chicken in your backyard as an offering to god, it ain't gonna do squat to support you. If on the other hand you raise a chicken and at some point eat it, you will be nourished by the invest of blood, yours in the care of chicken and the chickens in care of you.
I desire mercy not sacrifice. It is the whole investment of ones life that returns all that life has to offer, not the spilling of blood.

The zenith is an egotistical estimation, not a home.

 

I think the concept in magical thinking is that the sacrificed chicken corresponds to an unseen but powerful something which is present but intangible in your life. You "entangle" the chicken and the unseen (emotional proxy?), and since the chicken has some value as a sacrifice (it is a living being in its own right), and since in your mind you've entwined the two (you accept in faith it will work), your own subconcious gives the sacrifice meaning. Which would explain why the priest in the OT had to put his hands on the sacrificial goat - symbolic transference of sin. Anything is possible for he who believes.

I think people do this type of association even if they oppose the idea of it working. I have an issue with X because subconciously, it's connected to Y, and I have an issue with Y. It's not appropriate to have an issue with Y, so I have an issue with X instead. Transferrence?

Well of course. Jesus understood this. The pharisees didn't. And yes, "giving up your life" doesn't mean letting someone kill you. I get that.

The zenith is the inner sanctum; the closest man can get to God on his own. And if God were fair about it, it would result in death, even for the high priest.

 

The answer to your question cannot be answered in a few short words, and as you are a catholic, you will not understand the truth unless you are prepared to empty yourself of all preconceived ideas and go to the word of God as a little child, prepared to be filled with the truth, and to many who have been deceived by the great lie, the truth can offend them.

The apostles did not teach the so-called unbiblical immaculate conception, of Jesus and his mother Mary.

See Hebrew 5: 5 to 10; Jesus was a man born of the flesh as are all human beings. It was after he had been made perfect through suffering, that God declared him to be high priest in the line of succession to Melchizedek. Jesus did not take upon himself the honour of High priest, instead, God made him high priest as he rose from the baptismal waters and was filled with the spirit of the Lord that descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am Pleased. THIS DAY I have begotten thee." See the more ancient authorities of Luke 3: 22; before they were changed by the universal church.

In Luke 3: 22; In place of "Thou art my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" the following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries read, "This Day I Have begotten thee," vouched for by Codex D, and the most ancient copies of the old Latin (a, b, c, ff. I), by Justin Martyr (AD 140), Clemens Alex (AD. 190), Methodius (AD. 290), among the Greeks. And among the Latins, Lactatius (AD. 300), Hilary (AD,) Juvencus (AD. 330), Faustus (AD, 400) and Augustine. All these oldest manuscripts were changed completely. They now read, "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased." Whereas the original variant was, "Thou art my Son. THIS DAY I have begotten thee."

He who was born of the flesh as are all human beings, was the first fruits to be harvested from the body of man, the first of many brothers, and He was born the first of the Son's of God, not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of our Lord God and saviour, who chose his sons, even before they were born. See 1st Peter 1: 20.

In the days of the Apostle Paul, who in 1st Timothy 1: 1; says: “From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by order of “GOD OUR SAVIOUR’ and Christ Jesus ‘OUR HOPE.’” The people were already beginning to fall away from the truth, and following another gospel that was not taught by the word of God or the apostles.

In his 2nd letter to the Corinthians 11: 4; Paul says, “You gladly tolerate anyone who comes to you and preaches a different Jesus, not the one we preached; and you accept a spirit (The Lie) and a gospel completely different from the spirit (Of Truth) and the gospel you received from us.”

Then in Galatians 1: 6; Paul says again, “I am surprised at you! In no time at all you are deserting the truth and are accepting another gospel.

So, What was that other gospel that was leading the people away from the truth and away from the Jesus as preached by the Apostles, to another false Jesus?

That gospel was the word of the anti-christ, that refused to acknowledge that Jesus had come as a human being, and instead, they believed that he was a spirit, who, like some Hologram, would appear and disappear at will.

Even in the later days of John, the false teaching that Jesus was not of the seed of Adam from which every human being who has, or ever will walk this earth, has descended, and had not come as a human being, but as a spiritual being, was already beginning to rear its ugly head, and concerning that evolving falsehood, John had this to say.

1st letter of John 4:1-3; “My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, (My words are spirit) but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere. This is how you will be able to know if it is Gods spirit/word: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus came as a human being has the spirit who comes from God. But anyone who denies this about Jesus does not have the spirit from God. The spirit that he has is from the enemy of the anointed one, the Anti-christ etc.”

2nd letter of John verses 7-10;.“Many deceivers have gone out all over the world, people who do not acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being. Such a person is a deceiver and an enemy of Christ.”

We all know where to find the teaching of the anti-christ that Jesus was not a true human being, which has been spread ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Over the centuries the false teaching of the anti-christ continued to evolve, as the followers of the teachings of the anti-christ became more enlightened and harder to deceive. In Alexandria, by the second century, ‘Docetism,’ the concept that Jesus had existed as a spirit rather than a human being, had all but theoretically been stamped out.

But still, there persisted the belief that their false Jesus, although seen as a sort of human being, did not have our normal bodily needs, such as eating, drinking and having to go to the toilet, and Clement the bishop of Alexandria, wrote: “It would be ridiculous to imagine that the redeemer, in order to exist, had the usual needs of man. He only took food and ate it in order that we should not teach about him in a Docetic fashion.” Satan must have had some trouble trying to tempt this false Jesus of theirs into turning stones into bread.

Their Jesus was not the Jesus as taught by the apostles, but that other Jesus, taught by the Anti-Christ, who unlike we mere HUMAN BEINGS, did not need to eat, drink, or go to the toilet, as was taught by one of the great teachers that the members of the universal church, love to use as one of their authorities when trying to defend one of their false doctrines.

Saint Clement of Alexandria, who was a saint in the Martyrology of the Roman universal church, in support of the great lie, speaks of the time that some imaginary midwife, who was supposed to be at the birth of Jesus, told some woman by the name Salome, that the mother was still a virgin after the birth and that her hymen was still intact, and that this supposed Salome, stuck her finger into the mother’s vagina to check, and her hand immediately withered up, but the baby Jesus reached out and touched her hand and healed it.

Clement was a saint in the universal church, which was established by King Constantine, from a rag-tag group of insult hurling religious bodies, who called themselves christians. Eventually, sick to the stomach with their constant quarreling and abuse toward each other, Constantine summond all the leaders of those groups to the first ever "World Council of churches," where, in 325 AD, some 300 years after the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ had been firmly established in Jerusalem, under the dominating presence of the non-christian, and almost certainly, theologically illiterate Constantine, was established his universal church, which has nothing to do with the Jesus as taught by the apostles.

Down to the 17th century Clement was venerated as a saint. His name was to be found in the Martyrologies, and his feast fell on December 4. But when the Roman Martyrology was revised by Clement VIII (Pope from 1592 to 1605), his name was dropped from the calendar on the advice of his confessor, Cardinal Baronius. Pope Benedict XIV in 1748 maintained his predecessor's decision on the grounds that Clement's life was little-known; that he had never obtained public cultus in the Church; and that some of his doctrines were, if not erroneous, at least highly suspect.

"ERRONEOUS--HIGHLY SUSPECT," you can say that again----and again ------- and again. But by then the falsehood was firmly established and its seeds had taken root in all the nations of the world. The Lord now has need of some good gardeners, to help root out those noxious weeds.

If you wish to continue in your quest for the reason that Our Lord God and savior commanded his earthly host body Jesus, to go to the cross, then please ask the questions that you need answered in order that you might come to a full understanding of the truth.

John 3: 13; "For in the SAME MANNER that Moses lifted up the IMAGE of the serpent in the desert, so too, the IMAGE of the "Son of Man" whose spirit came down and filled his chosen successor, had to be lifted up, in order that all who are dying from the venom of the old serpent that is coursing through their veins, only have to Look to his perfected IMAGE which has been lifted up upon a pole.

John 14: 30; "I cannot talk to you much longer for (Death) the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me, but the world must know I love the Father; that is why I do everything he commands me." These were the words spoken by our chosen King and High priest, Jesus.

 

Revenant79:

Possible, but actual? What is present is all too tangible. A man ( or woman ) of knowledge has belief above superstition.

Association.

 

S-word:

He already did. There is no reason for God commanding the crucifixion. Salvation has become prejudice in your thought.

 

God is closer than my own hand and nearer than my own heart. Your premise even causes you to question god's 'fairness'.

 

Yes it can and has, he didn't.

 

Perhaps Moses who was the adopted son of Pharaoh and who would have been afforded the best education in the country may have been initiated into the circle of the guardians of the sacred secrets. Moses took the bread or the sacred teachings of Egypt and removed the yeast and gave to the Israelites the unleavened loaf that came down from God. --------- In the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. Now where do you suppose Moses received this teaching, the only source that I can find is written in the books of Enoch the righteous, where, concernibg the angels who forsook their own habitat and came down and defiled themselves with the daughters of man, it is written.

“And Michael said to the heavenly Lord, (Jahel Jah=Lord to the glory of El the creator )"Seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and has revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven, which men were striving to learn. And Semjaza, to whom you have given authority to bear rule over his associates (The other 199 sons of God) and they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth and have slept with them and revealed to them all kinds of sin etc.

And Azael taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth (Tubal-cain, from a previous age of man had been an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron, which knowledge was stored in heaven when that age came to it's end) and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tintures etc.

The Lord then passed judgment on the angels who had forsaken their own original abode and came down and defiled themselves with the daughters of men.

They were to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke 3: 23-38) but Azazel was punished separate from the others, He was taken out into the wilderness to a place called 'Dudael,' where he was cast into a deep pit and covered with rough and jagged stone, and all sin was to be ascribed to him.

Jesus was 70 generations from Enoch, see Luke 3: 23-38; and Enoch is the 7th from Adam, this makes Jesus the eleventh of the seventh born sons from Adam: 10 is the close of the old system, 10+1= eleven begins the new system, "The Second Adam.".

Jesus was the first fruits to be harvested from the body of man, the first of many brothers to be raised from the dead, the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of light that is torn asunder for our salvation.

In his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, He, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute."

And Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father.


The Elect and chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear the IMAGE of Jesus the second Adam, “The shining ones,” a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light that is the Temple that is to replace God’s old tabernacle (Mankind) as supreme rulers on this earth.

First, MAN was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN WHO IS CROWNED WITH GLORY, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and now sits in His heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites they; who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father’s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and invisible, which, as Paul states, includes even the angels, will bow at their feet

 

Honestly, the most logical reason for people to believe God wants blood is that ancient aliens actually did come and do some sort of genetic harvest at some point in history.

 

Every human being must die once then go off into Judgment. Those spirits of Good people who have fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin, and are separated from the unrighteous dead, by being gathered to the living evolving spirit of our ancestral Father within the bosom of Abraham's lineage, have been judged in the flesh as all humans are, and over them, the second death has no power.

Those spirits were united to the living evolving spirit of our ancestral Father Enoch.

From "The Book of Enoch the Prophet," 37: 4; "Till the present day such wisdom has never been given by the Lord of spirits as I have received according to my insight, according to the good pleasure of the Lord of spirits by whom the lot of eternal life has been given to me."

This is verified by your bible, which reveals that Enoch is the only exception of all mankind, who is recorded as having been taken to God: see Gen 5: 23; and to have been translated in order to never experience death, see Hebrew 11: 5.

Within the inner dimension of the body of post-flood mankind, which body is the Most High in the creation, the invisible Enoch ascends to the ends of all things, evolving on the spirit of the cells of his physical three dimensional body, within the most high in the creation.

John 3: 13; No man has ascended to heaven except, (Who was that exception?) except he who came down, even the Son of Man who “IS” in heaven.

There are those, who in a state of hypnosis or deep meditation, are able to enter into the inner most centre of their being, and merge with a mind of one of their ancient ancestors, where they experience the past through the mind of their ancestor, while he receives images of the future for which the terminology to describe that which he envisions, has not even evolved.

He speaks of things that look like grasshoppers: like a prophet describing the unseen future, he rambles seemingly incoherent rubbish in his attempt to give form to and describe that which he is seeing (A military Heicopter). A great grasshopper with bulbous head, and two wings above it’s head that sound like the deafening roar of a huge waterfall when it moves, and it spits fire from it’s tail. All the while the comatose body in the present, is heard to be speaking an almost forgotten language that he could never have been expected to know or understand.

We are potential fourth dimensional beings trapped in this three dimensional world by the umbilical cord that binds us to these three dimensional wombs, in which we, the invisible minds/spirits are developing.

It was the mind of the “Son of man” Of whom Enoch was the chosen cornerstone and to whom all the chosen spirits in the creation of the great simulacrum/light-body/blueprint of the new species that comes from man, who dies in the process of involution, releasing from the least to the greatest, those spirits on whom he had evolved, who descended through time and spoke to Abraham, who was born while his ten ancestral fathers were still alive and no spirit had been gathered to the living evolving spirit of Enoch within the post-flood body of man. To Abraham, the supreme personality of Godhead to the body of the Most High in the creation, made his covenant, and said to Abraham, “In blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying, I will multiply you.”

Isaiah 57: 1-2; (1) Good people die, and no one understands or even cares. But when they die, no calamity can hurt them. (2) Those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death.

If the righteous dead find peace after their bodies have been returned to the universal elements from which they had been created, and who were gathered to the living evolving spirit of Enoch, within the body of Abraham’s descendants, what fate awaits the disembodied minds of the unrighteous dead, who awake with no bodily senses from which to take in any information? Minds/spirits trapped in the blinding light from which there appears no escape, thirsting for the knowledge of what lays ahead for them, living in the mental torment as they await their unknown, (to them) destiny.

Jesus was the obedient servant to his indwelling Father, who was Enoch as he had evolved to in the days of the Greco-Roman Empire, when, in obedience to our Father, he suffered that cruel death on the stake, It was not he, "The man Jesus" who died, but the spiritual Enoch, the chosen cornerstone to the great and glorious heavenly Simulacrum, which is the sacrificial Lamb of God, who placed his double in his throne, while He ceased to exist as all the spirits within the spiritual enclosure within Jesus, of which Enoch was their compilation were released, and poured out as fire on the heads of all they who believed the Word's of Our Lord God and saviour, that were spoken through the mouth of his faithful servant and earthly image, who was obedient even unto his cruel death on the cross. The stone that the builders rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all.

They, who have been judged in the flesh as are all human beings, now in spirit live as God lives, gathering to themselves their righteous descendants, as they evolve to the ends of time.

"These wonders that, Enoch, through Jesus, the chosen cornerstone and the least in the great Simulacrum, have done, you may do also, but even greater things than these."

From the Book of Enoch the Prophet who came down from the very heights of the highest heaven, 108: 11 to 13; (11) "And now I will summon the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of the light (Which Is far into our future) And I will transform those who were born in darkness, who, in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. (12) And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name (I Am Who I Am, and were obedient to, who they were) and I will seat each one on the throne of his honour. (13) And they shall be resplendent for times without number, etc.