Religion: basing your entire belief structure on an unproven subjective construct. Think about this: You were born into your religion, you were under constant scrutiny to practice your religion, your parents may have forced it on you, your peers may have forced it on you, you have gone to many many services to even have it soak in a little, and the repetition of phrases you hear have been refined for thousands of years so that you could never escape, fearing "hell" and praising "heaven". Then for a second of your time, someone mentions a truth, that there is no mystical being in the sky and you go into a rage. You know why this is? Because you know it, and you're mad as hell that you do. You're angry you've been lied to, but also upset that someone got out of it and doesn't have to go through what you're going through. You want the whole world to practice YOUR god and your idea of god because if you were the only one, you'd be looked at as INSANE. You have to constantly feed this idea, constantly refresh your mind about there being a God or else it fades into reality and fact... I don't need to refresh my atheism, my disbelief, no services, no support groups, no billboards, no hours of pointless babble... Because my idea actually makes a whole lot of sense. That we don't KNOW what made the universe.. but that we need to use our heads and try and find out what did, instead of making up a fairy tale to explain everything. Listen, if you're religious you have to understand that you aren't a bad person! The only one who should forgive you is the person you've offended, not talk to yourself about it in a closed room. Look, you are no better or no worse than me, and you need to realize that you can live a happy, healthy and productive life WITHOUT religion and that you aren't dependent on GOD at all, you have made it with the help of your peers and through your own determination, which is much more beautiful than the idea of some mystical sky daddy helping you out. (Also just for the sake of argument) But you can't disprove god!: The burden of proof lies in the hands of the accusing. Can I disprove that I didn't kill John F Kennedy? No, but if you accuse me of it you better have a damn strong case. But believing in God isn't going to hurt anything!: When your morality is based on a 2000 year old book that says that slaves are ok, that's bad. When you don't actually KNOW what God thinks is good and bad, but you have to consult him just to understand what "God's will" is, that's bad. When you feel that exploring the truth and reason is bad, that's bad. Believing in God will do one thing for you, put a blindfold on the real world for you and pretend like things are all hunky dory for a minute or two. Infact this list could go on forever, but You wouldn't read it all (If you do want to read it all, just say so!) But God gives me hope!: How? Is a death any less tragic because you pretend like he's asleep? Is life any more meaningful knowing that some giant man zapped us into existence (personally, I'd feel much less meaning). Does the knowledge that god saved one man in a hurricane make anything better? or would it be better that there was no hurricane in the first place? That you're following "god's plan?" even though you're tormented every single day of your life? Does he really give you hope, or are you just using wishful thinking? Face it, things don't get better because you believe that you're being taken care of... it only gets better when you do something about it, and say "fuck the care taker". And you know that phrase "God helps those who help themselves?", yeah... think about it.
amen my sect leader. shall we read the devil's scriptures now? FUCKING HEDONISTIC DWELLER! YOU SHALL NOT BE SAVED BY JOHN STAMOS ON THE MOONS ALIGNMENT WITH JESUS'S GOLD CHAIN AS HE SITS ON MOUNT OLYMPUS SIPPING MOJITOS!
Then explain the BIBLE, smart arse!! Aha! They wouldn't write it down if it wasn't true, would they? Hhehe, only joking. I like your rant. I love how catholics pretend that the vatican keeps all of its wealth for itself for some heavenly purpose, rather than feeding and clothing all the world. And I love how they manage to ignore all the kids that get sodomised. Catholics really are the most ignorant scum of the Earth. I love how they can ignore all the torturing of countless innocents and murder of scientists. Oh, also I had a dream that God was telling me some rules about life. QUICK, write it down in a holy book and pretend it's real!!! What do you mean, prove it? Get me my sword and I shall kill all who would challenge the integrity of this peaceful religion of which I am a messenger! And why didn't God say anything about fucking the world up by overusing hydrocarbons? It must be alright for us to do it, else he would have said.
Good rant, but here are more things to think about. All of us(not just religious folks) are born into families and communities who teach us ideas about reality that may be more or less fucked up (or we learn them on the street). People who break away from this are not necessarily guided by pure reason and science, but because of other influences that may be non-rational or irrational: they're brought in contact with people outside the home and community who have different ideas;they're influenced by what they see on TV that may go against what they've been taught; or they're rebelling against mom & dad; or their hormones are raging and they come from a religion that has no place for those; or they admire somebody who they find out is an atheist, etc. Then for a second of your time, someone mentions a truth, that maybe there is a mystical being in the sky and you go into a rage. You know why this is? Because you think it might be true, and you're mad as hell that you do. You think you might be sucked back into that crippling religion you struggled so hard to break free of. You want the whole world to practice YOUR disbelief because if you were the only one, you'd be looked at as a crank (or wonder if maybe it's you who has the problem). You have to constantly feed this idea, constantly refresh your mind about there not being a God (e.g., by rants on Hip Forums) to convince yourself that it's true... Yes, I know that's an unfair stereotype. How does it feel? What we're talking about isn't a courtroom argument or a debate, but how we choose to live our lives. There usually isn't enough evidence to "prove" the correctness of our life choices. In making our way through an ambiguous reality, we have to play hunches and go on the basis of whatever limited, imperfect evidence we have available. I agree completely, which is why I'm not a fundamentalist. Religion is one approach to finding meaning in life's experiences. To paraphrase Nietzsche, we can endure almost any what as long as there's a why. If you don't find meaning in it, religion is not for you. Try finding it elsewhere.
Atheism is just as much of a "belief structure of an unproven subjective construct", as any religion. And atheist are actually worse than fundamentalist Christians with trying to ram their ideas down peoples throats.
You know there are atheist religions, right? There is an extremely large difference between Atheism (what you're criticising), and Naturalism (what you're trying to criticise). Atheism is to 'belief structure' as theism is to religion. You are being seduced by the consistency between the two. And ice cream tastes better than peanut butter. When was the last time an atheist knocked on your door, banned stem cell research or held an anti-gay protest because of their atheism?
Wow, I loved the return rant, Okiefreak. Some Christians are so cool. Tricknologist is kind of right, some atheists treat the work of Charles Darwin like the bible and science like a church (see my thread in this forum for a few cases that dispute traditional evolutionist beliefs). And they're more stubborn in the head than most religious folk. The more I hear fellow atheists bang on about how right they are and how wrong everyone who is not an atheist is, the more I dislike associating myself with them. OK, we get it, religions have been proven wrong by history and science, get on with your lives, you sad cunts! Are you sure enough to shout it in a church in the middle of a mass? Or make a movie and publicise it world wide? Ooooh wait it's these movies that give us atheists most of our atheist dogma! Gosh darn it, atheists can be so annoying. Atheists like heeh2 however, he's the kind of atheist (I assume) I like. He knows what he's talking about.
Probably some religious people in those buildings, I wonder if they ended up in the heaven? Hang on, are you blaming religion for 911?
I'm merely citing a feasible situation. I could easily find another but this one is the most popular example despite what actually caused 9/11. Religious people kill other religious, and non-religious people all the time, because of their religion; The mother who killed her kids to save their souls from hell, the pastor who drowned a baby during a baptism, ect. I don't know what point you're trying to make by pointing out that there were religious people in the buildings as their undoubtedly were, I'm merely addressing the point that we should "get on with our lives" when our lives involve dealing with religiously motivated individuals.
Ah, ok. I meant more to "get on with your life" by doing something important, rather than continuing to talk to other atheists about how cool atheism is/bad religion is while doing jack shit about it. Activist atheists are fine with me, as long as they preach outside their own flock, if you see what I mean. I wasn't really making a point at all about the religious people in the building, just wondered if they got to heaven or not. Why didn't their god save them? (all together now) Because there is no god!! yay!! I was just confused why you had brought 911 into it because I am of the school of thought (sane) that the evidence points to a flase flag attack. Actually, when you think about it, it's perfectly logical to blame religion for 911, just not Islam. All roads lead to Rome, especially the ones from the US. I wish you'd never reminded me of the mother who killed her children, that story sickened me so much when I first heard it. It took me days to comprehend it, I just couldn't believe that someone could view the world like that. Such depravity can only exist under the guise of holiness ( just like regular child rape). Fundamentalists are truly insane.
I don't know. I thought I was learning a lot about refining my own technique to play on the sensitivities of the religious in a lot of my Internet ventures and its led me to ridicule and laughter. I've had my share of rhetoric aimed at other Naturalists to consider their response and like everything else, its was a valuable learning experience. Overall I'm not as taxed about replying to religious fanatics as I am making a laughing stock out of the majority, as well we should. People who believe in things with no evidence, and obstruct other individuals in their pursuit of happiness should be ridiculed and laughed out of their delusions. But I'm getting ahead of myself as if the majority don't fit the religious category; I for one don't like being the only one laughing at my jokes. Just consider for a second what you're asking activists of atheism to do. Despite the fact that they've enlisted legions of individuals who will take up the cause of spreading rational thought throughout the populous by preaching to the choir, their methods are somehow inadequate or, over the top. I don't follow, nor do I see what you mean. It always amazed me how so many people would take an existential Q&A upon themselves in order to free their fellow man from the grips of incoherence, and it still does. I don't want to toot my own horn, but I even amaze myself by how much effort I'm willing to put into some of these responses on this forum and others to help someone. A trivial question, don't you think? If they didn't get to heaven, where else would they have gone? Assuming you're a heaven or hell kind of person I'd expect they're burning their asses off right about now, but is that all their is to it? I cant even delve into the alternatives to heaven because the word is so ambiguous, just like god, just like hell. They could be describing absolutely anything. I'f I had to answer in just a few words though, I'd say no, they didn't get to heaven, because 'they' don't exist any more. What you're describing as 'they' is a relationship of molecules that ended when death came. lol. this makes a great example of the difference between the religious and non religious. That is the simplest answer I can think of to a question like that, and it makes sense, doesn't it? But what would Jerry Falwell say to a question like that? You've already begun to think of the silliest situations imaginable, and thats what people believe. Love would have to be the word powerful enough to describe how stupid it is. Sometimes I feel like a poet when ridiculing religion... Fundamentalism doesn't mean anything to me. Most people want it to mean "we still believe crazy shit, but we're not doing crazy shit so its okay!". Its like saying you're a member of the non fundementalist KKK; how would you expect people to respond to that? There is a better word to describe "non fundamental Christians" and "non fundamental Muslims". There is no difference between myself and a self titled christian who reads a bible when he loses his way, but rejects that jesus rose from the grave. I'm just being honest about what I am. I'm getting ahead of myself again though; 'Christian' and 'Muslim' have strong cultural connotation, and there are a lot of cultural Christians and Muslims who don't care to have or listen to conversations like these because it doesn't matter to them. But anyways, I didn't mean to write so much, nor to have you read so much if that's what you did. I just felt like writing...
I don't think this is generally the case. The thing is christianity has this concept of 'witnessing' meaning members are compelled by their religion to 'save' (aka convince) non-members. Atheism is simply a lack of beleif in any god or diety. There is no pressure to 'convert' others. I for one, never bring up religion in conversation. The only time it ever comes up is when a well-intentioned theist starts asking questions.
If I may butt in, it's completely true that fundie Christians are preachy. My aunt is one of those. If you start talking about religions (as a whole), she won't shut up about Jesus and the bible. Don't get wrong though, Jesus was a great man and I don't mean to insult him, rather my aunt. Inversely though, atheists can be just as preachy and condescending. For example, I was on this date that my steins had set up for me with an atheist. God knows how we started talking about philosophy, but it happened. I told him about my belief in a God and stared at me and then obnoxiously scoffed and said he was an atheist and he said this with an excessive amount of pride that parallels my aunts pride in her religion. Needless to say, the evening turned sour quickly and I haven't talked to him since--which is about a two weeks ago. It's a shame, though. He was so gorgeous I was considering putting out.
Oh, am I shoving my atheism down the throats of an atheist sub-forum? My mistakes. You know, I just thought maybe I could DISCUSS ATHEISM IN AN ATHEIST SUB FORUM. Or is that preachy?
It is indeed preachy. But you're right. This is an atheist thread, but it is not exclusively atheist. I can come in here whenever the hell I want to.
