I'm copying the text below verbatim from another veg. board (I'd hyperlink if I knew how, but I'm stupid) -- I saw it there and it really interested me... I'd love to hear people's thoughts here. I'm not sure what I think about it yet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You see, I just love beer, but this has been really bothering me recently... Here's the argument: Vegans are often criticised by meaties about the fact that raising crops kills animals, too, so no food is really "cruelty-free." Vegans respond (quite sensibly) that (1) you feed plants to animals raised for food, so if raising crops kills animals then raising meat just kills that many more, and (2) we have to eat something to live, so although we may sadly not be "cruelty-free" we're doing the best we can. Here's the problem: We don't need alcohol to live. In fact, it's really bad for you (at least as bad for you as meat/dairy). I only drink it because I like it -- it's a pure aesthetic pleasure, if you will. But this is exactly what the meaties say about meat! So is it morally acceptable for me to consume something, the production of which is causing a great deal of suffering (animals killed growing grains/barley/wheat/etc. to make alcoholic beverages), that I am consuming for no reason other than my own pleasure (I just like it -- it's not doing me any good)? Because the more I think about it, the more that sounds exactly like what the meaties say when they defend their practice of eating flesh. In other words, is beer vegan? Thoughts, please.
Most beer is vegan (unless you count the millions of poor yeast cells that die fermenting it), but SOME beer is clarified using an ingredient called "isinglass", which is made from fish. Unless you know the specifics of the brewing process, you can't be sure. Ask the manufacturer. Some kinds of hard liquor are filtered through charcoal made from animal bones.
Um... since your profile says you're 12 I'll assume this is second-hand knowledge. And besides, I don't think this really addresses the point. The point is: is it ethically acceptable to do anything unnecessary that causes suffering? The clear answer seems to be "no." So, since animals are killed (inadvertantly) in the production of the ingredients in alcohol, and we don't need alcohol, maybe it is immoral to drink it (violating the vegan ethic of minimizing suffering)? This is different from just say, eating corn or barley, because (as the post said) we need to eat something, and those are as good as anything else. But we don't need to drink alcohol. Oh sorry I got off track -- brewing your own beer doesn't help I don't think, because you still buy the ingredients (don't you?), so you have the same problem...
Definitely not the point -- I realize this (and I don't count the yeast cells). But even among "vegan" beers, animals are killed (it's the nature of modern agriculture -- they don't end up in the beer, but they die nonetheless. And since we don't need beer to live (it doesn't really do us any good), aren't these deaths unnecessary? I feel like I've having to do an awful lot of defending/explaining of this post that I'm not even sure I agree with...
the same could be said for all food items, basicaly we do not need to eat the wide variaty of foods that we do, so a vegan how eats a food like pineappple for sample would be causing harm to animals in some way. basicly being vegan is to stop or reduce animal suffering on large production farms, not to try and stop all human caused animal suffering. That would be impossible. How times have animals been killed when the trucks that deliver veggies accidently run them over on the road.
I live near a steel plant where a guy was killed recently in one of their machines, and it's not the first time, I'm sure. I have a number of stainless steel items in my home anyway, because they look nice, I don't need them. I don't think that it makes me a murderer, because I'm not paying the steel plant to kill workers, and it isn't their intention to kill workers, but it happens sometimes. Accidents do happen in plant harvests, some animals are killed (though I think that the numbers are a heck of alot smaller than most omnis would have you believe). I don't think that the possibility of accidental deaths should restrict your day to day activities too much. Otherwise, how could you go for an evening stroll without knowing that you may end up responsible for the deaths of innocent insects on the sidewalk, knowing that you don't need a walk? Draw the line where it feels reasonable. If I'm not sure how I feel regarding an animal-y situation, I generally draw a comparison to a simillar situation involving a human animal as above..it seems to put things in perspective nicely.
I think this is an inherent problem with viewing vegetarianism, veganism or any other ism as a moral absolute. They aren't and never can be. They're just labels that we've applied for the sake of convenience to a particular moral line in the sand. A modern life can never be 100% cruelty free, so all that remains is to decide how far you want to go in distancing yourself from such cruelty. Vegetarianism is one step. Veganism is another step further. But there are lots of little steps before and after. Deciding how many steps you take is perhaps more productive than pondering whether something is or isn't vegan.
geez, i hate to adress the "poor little mice" argument because it is a nonsensical waste of time distracting from the real issue, in Torah study we call this pilpul, but here goes. Some disgusting percentage of industrialized agriculture goes to animal feed. I think, and I am forgetful and without the resource at hand, 83 percent of US grown soy goes to livestock feed. corn is also high up there, I'm thinking in the 70s. Facts are humans will inadvertantly kill to raise crops, but slaughter is VERY intentional. THe wildlife can leave a field through mechanical disruptions (seeding, harvesting) and live there realatively undisturbed for the rest of the time. Burrowing animals will head underground, and the raptors will soar over to the guy who hasn't started yet. Birds bail 'til all is quiet. Sometimes simply changing by a week the timing of planting can allow ground-nesters like the mountain plover time to get out of the way (they do leave quickly once those babies fly.) Not too many crops are date-specific, and a week either way does little impact to yield. Livestock will be killed. Either way. so, what has more ethics: higher on the chain or lower? so, beer, not filtered with isinglass (fish bladder...yum..?) or wine not clarified with gelatine should be ethically OK.
Oh I am sorry, I thought you were having problems with the health problems of it, thats what your post sounds like. Yeah I am 12, but my dad used to brew his own beer, and I helped him. Sorry if I bothered you at all
Oh geez oops... I'm sorry -- I didn't mean to imply that you bothered me in any way... I'm not always good with my "tone of voice" while typing -- I often come across as upset when I'm not at all. I thank you and everyone else for all the interesting responses.
I am not sure where you guys are living but more and more beers and wine is being labelled as veggie or vegan and some wines even put which filtration is used such as isinglass..from fish bladders or casein which is ok for veggies not vegans or cork.
Don't define yourself by other peoples definitions or expectations. Even if you were omniverous but decided to eat one vegetarian meal a week you would be helping. All you can do is what's right for you. If you want to drink beer than drink it. Don't feel like you have to justify yourself to others. Technically, I am a vegetarian with vegan tendancies. I don't analyze labels and learn latin names to see if there are a few animal cells in my food. I don't feel guilty if I eat bread with egg whites. I don't beat myself up if I eat a piece of cheese once in awhile. I know that I have made a difference just with what I am doing. And that I feel healthier and happier for it. I think that you are making a huge difference as a vegan and that if you want to drink beer you should. If other condemn you for it - so be it. Saje
