Hurt/offended by the Church/Christians?

Hello Everyone. I know this thread was all but done, but I wanted to give another update. A friend of mine that is a pastor of a church in Oakland found great interest in our message series on hot topics, especially this one. I'll be guest speaking at his church this weekend to continue to talk to the church body about our biblical God given call to love all people. I know that not everyone agrees with my faith, but wanted to thank you all again for your time in sharing. I think your insight and sharing is helping to open up the eyes of the humanity of people outside of the church walls that many Christians don't get to experience.

Just thought you'd like to know, and if you didn't, sorry. =o)

On a side note - a lot of what you all share here is also expressed in a book called "unChristian" which is a book to help believers see the perception of the church from the outside. The statistics are staggering (91% of people interviewed consider the church to be anti-homosexual, 87% judgmental, 75% too involved in politics, etc). Very little positive feelings about the church. Eye opening. This book is part of a movement to get the church to be what it was supposed to be.

Hope you all had a great new years and holiday season (Christmas for me)

 

'to love all people' is a attribute of human nature.
Why do you assign this to the God of the bible, who flooded the earth for no good reason and told Moses to slaughter countless people.

My 'love' for all people is innate in me. It's strange that you try and accredit religion with this feeling.

Religion has imbued me with hatred and fear and malice and nothing more.

 

Hello Enk,

"To love all people is an attribute of human nature" - there are many humans who do not love. All humans have the capacity to love and hate, but my faith is the reason that I've been inspired to love.

I am really sorry that religion has hurt you so much. I really am. I absolutely acknowledge that your experience has led you to your conclusions. What I don't understand is why you don't validate the idea that faith can also imbed hope, joy and love into people. It has over and over again for millions of people and for thousands of years. The very thing that I am trying to change in the church in their interactions with GLBTs is exactly what you're doing to me when I post. Your experience with the church is very similar to what I'm receiving from you - judgment against the core of who I am and anxiety every time I see that you've replied to my post. Your "love" for all people, if innate, has not been expressed to me at all.

The original post and this forum was not to win people over to my religion but try to find out where the church as a whole has gone wrong in people's experiences with it. I felt led to do this because of my convictions from my faith. If nothing else, I hope that you can at least acknowledge the fact that we've had very opposite experiences with religion but that each experience has led us to where we are now.

Once again, I'm not looking to be here to debate theology, science, etc. I just wanted to send an update for anyone that might be interested and that even though there were bad experiences with the church or varying views from media that we are moving in a way that will hopefully be more loving (and the lesson to the church is based on the scripture that has been convicting me).

Still appreciate your posts as it is very revealing to the depth of hurt that religion can cause. We are (by our convictions) working to stop those type of hurts from happening.

 

It's not everyday I get to have a pastor see my posts.

Here you go, I worked really hard on this for you.

As a pastor I hope you know what the word Deicide means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpH5kM312WU"]YouTube - DEICIDE - WHEN SATAN RULES HIS WORLD

 

Hello Timmr. I'm grateful for the update. It's good to hear that some Christians are realizing that gay folks are human beings, and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. I find this very encouraging. However, most Christian churches still consider LGBT folks hopeless sinners (at best), and disgusting perverts (at worst). So there is still much work to be done. And I applaud you for reaching out. That requires much courage and bravery.

I've had too many negative experiences with Christians to count. The worst examples were when (while I was still in my teens) I twice became homeless, because the churches I was involved with (I actually lived in Christian mission homes) ultimately decided I was not worthy of God's love and care. Former Christian friends literally shunned me once I was surviving on the streets. So much for following in the footsteps of Jesus!

Anyway, that was a long time ago, so I no longer hold any bitterness in my heart. I survived the experience, and that's what matters most. Also, I have done much reading (the Bible, The Lives of the Saints, Religion and Cults, etc.), and have come to the conclusion that for every 1000 misguided Christians - there is one that is true. So I do my best to focus on what's good and true, and avoid what's destructive and false.

You seem like a good Christian. And I commend you for the work you are doing. I hope more Christians will ultimately love gay folks, instead of shunning us. That would make the world a better place for all. I'm currently reading Mother Teresa's private letters: Come Be My Light. I am learning much about religion and human suffering. And how empathy (not indifference) is what truly heals the hurt. Again, thanks for the recent update. And I hope your project is a great success. :sunny:

QP

 

Hey Timmr, As the Poet says, thank you for the update and the respect. Speaking only for myself, though I suspect others would agree, I appreciate your outreach without the intent to save our raggedy-assed souls. Thats the kind of respect that helps build bridges and not barricades. If I (We?) can offer anything else feel free to ask.

I know for some folks Christianity is a vital part of life full of meaning and reward. I respect that. I really respect the fact that you checked back in, says a lot about the quality of human being that you are. As I recall you are fresh into the business of fatherhood...So here's warm wishes for you and your family. I hope this finds you all well.

 

well thanks timmr.

looking back, it seems I was exaggerating the negative things. sorry!
hope and inspiration aren't things I'm going to argue with.
I can't argue with love either!

I'll tell you why, it's a very specific reason.
It's because of Leviticus and Corinthians.

It's because of all the people with GOD HATES FAGS sign on the streets (I know that's not you...but you do know you have something in common with those people right?)
it's sort of permanently damaging, it was for me when I was 17 and reading about the bible and homosexuality. kinda wrecked my self-esteem and how i felt about my life in general.

good luck changing it.
The only way you can really change it is to have another council of Nicaea and change the biblical canon.
The parts condemning homosexuality were poorly translated and should be removed.

You need to remove the part about killing pagans and 'false god's' and 'keep your women silent' and all that stuff too.

even then the bible is still pretty foul.

You probably just need to get rid of everything except Jesus' speeches.

oh i don't know about that.
I think all human beings love, even if it's just their parents or their dog.

 

Nicely put, yara. And I totally agree. Communication is everything. And as long as there is mutual respect, then I say we should give it a go. Anger begets anger. So peace is the better choice. :sunny:

QP

 

I agree. I tell ppl I have a very thin Bible. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John & Thomas. The rest of the "New Testament" seems to be Paul proselytizing his new religion, perhaps trying to differentiate his Greeks & Romans from the more sex-positive traditional ones.

BTW, many Christians who call that Greek & Roman stuff "mythology" haven't a clue that their own Jehovah is modeled after Zeus, a bearded old man in the sky meddling with the petty affairs of humans and demigods.

Or that Hell is just where the magma has always been, occasionally coming up as lava to destroy ppl and cities as the wrath of Hades battling with his brother Zeus.

So ancient, so simplistic and so hypocritical to call one an unfounded myth and the other some kind of reality worth killing over.

 

Actually, I prefer cats. But I understand what you mean. Yeah, love is the answer... but where should we direct our love? Especially when we are despised by the majority? I suggest finding love in the small things: a cat, a poem, or even a simple hello to a neighbor everyone ignores. God is found in the oddest places. Let no book (or person) tell you where to go. :love:

QP

 

Isn't there where the church has gone wrong? All they do is judge and measure. Also i don't think they should be called Christians but Paul's. Most so called Christians don't follow the words told by Christ but the things told by Paul. It has been a while since i have read the bible but don't think there is a part where Jesus himself says "i am gonna die for your sins so you can have eternal life with God" Everybody else says it but not the one who should matter. Then there are the new testaments. 4 books who were chosen by church to be the real deal and everything else got cut out. Ever heard of the Nag Hammadi writings? They contain other books who are btw older (therefore closer to the source) then the 4 books of the church.
Sure there will be Christians that are good at heart, i just don't understand why they follow an institution that is manipulating, contradictory and which surpresses ppl. I mean they already have the government doing that, why need church?

 

I really don't think it is fair to lump all Christians together. I mean, would Anita Bryant even stoop so low to visit our forums? I think not. That's why I am both startled and pleased... that an actual straight Christian should seek honest discussion with LGBT folks. This is a rare opportunity for us to understand each other. So why slam the door?
The OP has been both open and vulnerable about himself and his beliefs. So if we judge him harshly, are we not guilty of judging him?

QP

 

=o) THanks for the replies everyone. Very open and honest. Enk, I very very much appreciate your post.

In reply to your "It's because of all the people with GOD HATES FAGS sign on the streets (I know that's not you...but you do know you have something in common with those people right?)" - I understand where you're coming from. but I think this type of thinking is also what America has been fighting so hard against. Please excuse this next comment, it is for example only and not at all how I truly feel. In the past, people thought that all black people were thieves, murderers and rapists. Even if someone had their own personal experience with an African American, everything we learn in our postmodern and enlightened culture tells us that we should not judge all of a race based on the individual actions of others.

I also do understand your feelings about the bible and in that sense, for anyone who believes that the bible is the word of God, we find our differences there, but I would hope that my faith in the bible and your sexuality would not be the basis for us not being able to talk about things together.

"I think all human beings love, even if it's just their parents or their dog." True - Even people that hold up "GOD HATES FAGS" signs love somebody. I apologize for not clarifying. There are many people who do not love all people. That is what I am trying to change. I was reading scripture this morning from the sermon on the mount where Jesus says "46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." I feel that my call and the call of all Christians is to love all people- even those that they might consider their enemies.

Yara- yes! Fatherhood is... wow. It is unbelievable. My daughter started smiling and laughing in response to the RIDICULOUS things her mother and I try to do to get a reaction. But man, when she does, it just melts the both of us. Thanks for the well wishes. Same to you and yours!

Not to leave anyone out, Shale, I always appreciate your posts and thoughts. I may have differing opinions =o) Captain Cannabis- I may not agree with the message of the song, but quality musicianship - is that your band? Or just a link? I have guitar students who are quite into metal... and Queer Poet, thanks for the extra background sharing on you. Hey, this project would be a success if even one person changes- then maybe the both of us can continue to spread the call of love. Little by little, I think change is coming.

 

p.s. Enk and everyone else - I hope my statement "I would hope that my faith in the bible and your sexuality would not be the basis for us not being able to talk about things together." wasn't too blunt - and if it was, I apologize.

Regular guy- Yes! Good knowledge, I am very aware of the Nag Hammadi writings as well as the dead sea scrolls and the writing of the essenes. I've studied the process of canonization, the methods, and even the texts of the non-canonized bibles. It is very interesting and I have reasons to continue to believe what I believe. Jesus does very specifically talk about dying, about going back to the father, and about redemption in many places. In response to "Most so called Christians don't follow the words told by Christ but the things told by Paul." I disagree. Most of our sermons are Christ based. Thanks Queer Poet- you replied my exact thoughts on this. Regular guy, great to see you in this thread. Glad you could join.

 

" I also said Sure there will be Christians that are good at heart"
I know there are good Christians out there, i just think you don't need a bible to be good, nice, etc. Goodness and love come from the heart not because of a book.

 

I do think that is one of the great deceits and illusions perpetuated by not just Christianity, but by many people from many other faiths. That you need faith in a god in order to be a kind, decent person. In fact, some of the most barbaric and heinous acts in history have been carried out by religious people in the name of god. Im a good, loving person, because I want to be, and because it's in my nature and heart to be that way. You most certainly dont need religion to be a good person.

 

I totally agree. Goodness comes from the heart. No special book is required.

QP

 

Beautifully stated. And I totally agree. :sunny:

QP

 

Aww thank you. You always manage to make me feel just a tiny bit better about myself. :love:

 

You have a very kind soul. A million miles from invisible. :love:

QP