To win over enough people we've got to play this differently

I think I'm pretty much in agreement with everyone here when I say the teabaggers are destroying America or are evidence that America is already destroyed (it's really like the chicken or the egg argument).

But we're never going to get anyone who hasn't picked sides or any of those young people growing up and just now becoming politically aware if in public debate we call them teabaggers, morons, rednecks, christofascists, etc..

You probably know who I'm sounding like so I'll bring him up and one of his best points made in his interview with Rachel Maddow. Rachel asked Jon Stewart why we can't convince people things seemingly factual like that George Bush was a war-criminal. Stewart responded that when he thinks war-criminal he thinks people like Pol-Pot. No matter how bad our leader is, since it's our leader, we don't want to think they're *that* bad. So then we come off as "extreme" and we lose credibility. He described it as a conversation-stopper instead of a conversation-starter. I thought that was spot-on.

Now if you start up a conversation with "I think President Bush misused his Presidential powers. He drastically expanded government and may have used bad intelligence to get us stuck in a war that has cost many thousands of lives for a decade. That's why I don't like him. What say you to that?" I think you can get places with people.

For one thing if you're speaking with a reasonable person who's a moderate or fiscal conservative they should acknowledge you as someone they consider worth debating with. And you also might appeal to the classical-conservative point of view if you point out that the Republicans since Reagan have in fact increased the size of government under all 3 of them and the 20 years of their oversight.

If that fails you might be able to expose this person as someone who supports Bush because they hate Arabs (and possibly any one else who isn't Caucasian and Christian) and believe in making war for the sake of it being badass and imposing their personal dogma on the rest of the world.

about 2/3rds of America doesn't really want people in power who think that way. but we're not exposing their followers as being this way. we're letting them hide behind bullshit excuses like "we're deficit hawks" "we're just protecting America from her enemies" "we're just making sure we preserve Family Values so that we are a peaceful people".

There's no reason they should be getting away with that so easily.

The reason they are is because they're pulling us down into the mud with them. Of course they've got to get in the mud because they've got no sound logic or facts to back up their argument. All they can appeal to is angry emotion and fear.

Liberals generally are a people of logic and believe in the respect of all men.

When we let them drag us down into calling them teabaggers more than we point out actual statistics, we're losing our upper hand.

We're letting them paint us as the extremists when really it's the other way around. They can point the finger the other way so well becuase they're masters at selling fear. They can convince the masses you are in fact the one to be afraid of.

News corp. and their buddies put a lot of money into this.. not just the message but being able to calculate our response. All of this is carefully crafted and we are dumb to fly right into their trap.

If we take the high road and always remain sane, reasonable, peaceful, tolerant, and fact-intelligence based (vs. emotional/fear based) people our movement will be successful.

If we fail they will keep using the best psychological tactics capitalism can buy in order to keep us divided and keep the masses voting against their own economic interests.

Just some food for thought.

Your ideas?

 

ekaterinburg

 

Teabaggers will make a GREAT front line when the revolution comes.

lol

 

Blantent hipocracy like that is why we're not getting anywhere.

"Sorry fellows, you're mean and were nice and I'm trying very hard to sit you on my knee and tell you why you fucked it all up, but you just wont listen to me"

No one's gonna bite that biscut buddy.

 

OP, I have no idea what that string of letters means, and I like to address people by name. So what should I call you?

I do agree with you that if you really speak in an extreme fashion, you are going to turn off a lot of people. You've gotta go easy.

With that said, I am now going to have to disagree with you on a few things. First off, the tea party is going to save the GOP from it self. Too many Republicans are liberals, when what we need in Washington is conservatives. And that is what the tea party brings, conservatives. Also the tea party is going to save us from Obama. That is why Obama is all of a sudden trying to compromise with Republicans on stuff like maintaining the status quo in taxes. The liberals in Congress are screaming foul, but Obama is smart enough to realize that he is losing the house, and he has to make hay while the sun shines.

What is it about the tea party that you don't like? Do you not like conservatives at all? I am a social liberal, but a fiscal conservative. the constitution describes what the government should be doing, and according to the 10th amendment, the rest of the stuff should be left to the states. I believe the government is way out of bounds, and needs to take like 12 big steps backward. I do think they need to leave marijuana alone. But much more important, they need to leave rich people alone, because the rich already contribute more than their fair share, they provide us all with jobs, they create almost all the wealth in the country and many make huge contributions to charity.

But, why are we even discussing taxes. The federal government does not have a revenue problem, they have a spending problem. You mentioned how the Republicans have grown government, and this is true. Bush spent way too much money, and was way too liberal. But, nothing like how much Obama has grown government. So, why should we allow taxes to go up on ANYBODY just so the government can spend more money. The federal government has PLENTY of money. They just need to stop spending so much.

I am not a part of a tea party, so I don't know for sure. But to me THAT is what the tea party is about. Reducing government. So how is that going to destroy America. Nay, that is gong to SAVE America.

 

I don't like the misuse of taxes either. No one does. I even volunteer on projects with the USFS, BLM, NPS, & USFWS so stuff can get done that wouldn't get done otherwise. Somehow that offends people I know that are teabaggers. As a whole, the so-called "freedom fighters" that are teabaggers, so much of my personal life they "had" to know, so they could "feel" comfortable around me, literally afraid that I "might be a fed".... WHOSE freedom are they really interested in? Not mine. Besides, if the feds want them bad enough, they can do anything they want (i.e. Kent State, Waco, Guantanamo Bay).

They are far from freedom fighters.

 

I do have a problem with the tea party. I do not have a problem with libertarians. I think libertarianism is a valid political philosophy. I think the tea party is a hodge podge of theocrats and bigots from the militant Christian right. I think they're pulling in some more libertarian minded people like yourself because of a multi-million dollar marketing strategy and all it's doing is destroying the true libertarian party.

The problem with the GOP is that they will not shrink government. I am a Democrat (although like most of you I realize that *most* of their members are not answering to the people anymore) because the modern progressive Democratic philosophy is supposed to be to spend money and make regulations on the free market for the sake of people's health, education, and to help the poor and the needy. I do not hate rich people but I believe in what John Kennedy said - that if a free society cannot help the many who are poor it cannot save the few who are rich.

I realize the potential problems of big government. I also see how government can be used for the greater good if people are aware and make the right demands.

I hate the GOP because I do not think they are fiscal conservatives. I think they want to gut the middle class of America. They want government bigger except instead of growing domestic programs they want to grow the military for the sake of making war (because this serves their own party's special interest contributors). They stand for giving tax cuts to the richest people who sit on their money, which is fiscally irresponsible, and they stand for giving tax cuts to corporations (which would be fine) but without any stipulation they have to stop shipping our jobs out of the country in exchange. They also stand for what I believe are truly creepy things like declaring this a "Christian nation" and launching holy wars against Islam - what would in this case be nuclear holy war.

I am not some sort of big-union Democrat and really I wish the party would focus more on social liberals than trying to always get the union vote. Unions are shrinking they're part of the problem we are in this economic predicament. Unions got greedy and lazy (demanding more pay while taking 12 men to screw a light bulb), while corporations got greedy and paranoid of the unions (laying off Americans and relocating jobs to Mexico and China for the sake of having far cheaper labor and the fact they're afraid American workers would just reunionize).

 

I am registered as a republican. It is the closest I can get to my true party affiliation. I won't discuss it specifically.

What I see is people trying to save themselves all this money, yet failing to recognize that maybe it saves them money, but what do they lose in return? ho is going to pave the roads? Who is going to take care of the parks? Who will manage the municipal waste treatment plant? And the municipal "potable" water plant? Then the schools. You think they can't get any worse? Think again.

Then my favorite. Volunteer emergency response. There was a similar event in Missouri I think. House caught fire and fire dept. refused to do anything about it. The family had not paid their membership dues. Well, you'll see a lot more, but it won't be just the fire dept., it'll also be the ambulance. Remember that the next time your kid gets hit by a car.

They just don't get it. All they think is America this and America that. They fail to realize that while we are having those problems, there are countries out there that really don't like us. And the first chance they get to make matters worse, they will. None of those teabaggers think of that. What about our military? Hey, I don't like them being over there as it is, where ever they are, but we gotta be realistic. If anything, we can support them all we want, but when the government cannot support their own troops, what does that do to them? To us?

None of them look at the bigger picture. All they can think about is "me me me me me me me me me me me me me".

 

You're right about people being greedy, but you're fucking deluded if you think our military should be in the middle east, or that it's saving lives in any fashon. No, governments don't like us, because instead of minding our business and maybe helping the world with a fiasco like north korea, we did multipule very stupid things to piss off extremist islam, a fight which can not be won, without either destroying close to half the people on earth, or fucking off and leaving them alone. Every man or woman stationed in the middle east is only another LEGITIMATE point for those who want to suicide bomb us into the stone age just like them.

 

Its too late, the world is going to a'spode next year when the flying spaghetti monster returns to the Earth after his five thousand year absence.

 

Racists and wacko christian fundamentalist theocrats probably do support the right side of politics, but like I've said before that does not necessarily mean the right wing politicians support them. I haven't seen anything in the tea party that is at all racist or christian theocratical. There may be a racist here or there, but the politicians themselves don't support those philosophies. In the same vein, I'll bet Obama got some votes from the few communists in America. But I won't suggest that Obama supports communist philosophy.

You don't like the Repubs because you don't think they are fiscal conservatives? OK, so you vote for the party that is definitely NOT fiscally conservative instead, how does that work? Everybody up there in Washington has powertrip problems, both sides of the aisle. So, we have to vote for politicians that say they are going to be fiscally conservative, and if they lie, vote them out. Voting Democrat because you don't like the Republicans because they act like democrats doesn't make any sense. I don't know anybody who is arguing for tax cuts for the richest people in America, but making the status quo permanent would be a good idea. Those rich people hire new employees, they provide wealth, the create jobs. Right now they are sitting on their money, because we have an anti wealth government and those companies are scared about what the government is going to do to them in terms of taxes and regulations. So, they sit on their money because they know they are going to need a very large chunk of change in the near future to avoid bankruptcy. Why would you hire a bunch of new employees, or expand your business when the president has promised that in 2 years they are going to fight like hell to raise your taxes. And remember, there are a lot of people that are in that top tax bracket that take in a lot of money, but don't get to hold on to it for very long. Having a lot of money coming in means sometimes you also have a lot of bills. One of the problems with all these taxes and regulations is that people with money can find ways around them in order to keep more of their money. Sending jobs overseas is one of those loopholes through which corporations can run an endaround. If we cut taxes for them, lessen regulations, and make it more attractive to have jobs here, then the jobs will come back. Corporations know we want jobs here, and they will bring the jobs back if government lets them. Don't punish corporations for sending jobs overseas, reward them for keeping jobs here. Make America's job environment more attractive. I don't think there is anyone in government that really wants to make this a "christian nation", like you said. There also is no war against Islam. Only against the extremist terrorists. Honestly, nobody is sitting there during debates looking at Keith Ellison thinking of ways to kill him. ("Hmmm, put a bomb in his car or arsenic in his soup. I don't even know how to do that. Wonder who I could hire that would know." No, there is no war against Islam.)

Like you said, Unions ARE a big problem in this country. The one area where I really have knowledge on this topic is in education. The teachers unions are royally screwing up our schools. This I know for a fact. I have heard that the unions are screwing up other industries as well, and while I don't know for a fact, I've not heard a convincing argument to the contrary. So, I agree with you there.

Basically, neither side is any good. But to me what we have right now is SSSSOOOOOOOO much worse than what we had 4 or 5 years ago. If Rubio and Scott, two Republicans that I just helped put in office, don't do what they said they would do, then I will help to vote them out. I believe that Rubio will be an especially good Senator. I think this is because his parents are Cuban exiles and he has been told first hand accounts of what tyranny is like. I would like to see him run for President in 2016. And he was a Tea Party candidate.

 

you haven't been looking very hard, have you?

 

Fawkes said="One of the problems with all these taxes and regulations is that people with money can find ways around them in order to keep more of their money". And there you have it. Hasn't it been ever thus? So I guess fewer regulations on those with money would help? Didn't seem that way the last several years.

 

Oh, I have to disagree with you there. *I* ain't the one deluded. Anyone that thinks I support us being over there IS.

There is nothing the privates and corporals and sgts can do about it. They have orders to follow and the military loses nothing when it it shitcans a handful or two for not wanting to go over to fight.

 

They call THEMSELVES teabaggers, and I do not believe they base that many, if ANY of their "thoughts" on statistics.
The best example I can think of is this:

As an atheist, can I really convince a Christian that the bible is a great work of fiction?
NO

So, can I have a RATIONAL conversation with someone that identifies themselves as a "teabagger"?

Afterall, life is 99% perspective.

But I digress, I am starting a radical left-wing group called the "Arabian Gogglers"

Who wants to join?

 

Actually, I found teabaggers to be offended by being called teabaggers, their claim is that it's a sexually suggestive slur. WTF? Like what? Calling them stupid pricks? Hey, if the shot fits....

Nyxx I have been thinking of starting my own internet group as well. Far more "different" than yours, I'm sure!

 

i'll bring the tahini

 

Ron paul and his followers - aren't they the real "tea party"

And isn't Ron Paul a blatant racist?

 

I dunno. I voted for Alan Keyes.

 

a few bad eggs, in a mob that all thinks pretty much the same, seems to me that the whole chicken is dead

i live in a very conservative, small town, and have no choice but to know douchebaggers - my mother and her husband do the thing as well

all those racist signs in the media? i don't know those people personally, perhaps they thought they were being "daring"

btw what's a political "team" and how do i get one?

 

then there's something to be said for pure crazy

 

No, you are probably thinking of his son, though I dont know much about him, he doesnt have a very good reputation though.


And I stopped buying into the left vs. right paradigm a long time ago.


Its two sides of the same coin IMO.

 

Maybe I've been to the pipe once to often but it seems to me, with a few exceptions, most politicians stand for whatever they feel will keep them in Washington. They remind me of a child who keeps testing his boundaries until he gets to the point that mom and dad finally say no and then backs off a little until it's time to test those boundaries again to see if he can push a little further, and so on, and so on, and so on.