Consciousness, reality, and states

I think that there are people who already do so. I think that there are also many who sometimes have that little glimmer of a reality shift and pull back from that as they are not sure what it is.

I think children shift between far easier than we do as they do not know how to block out what we are trained to do. We are trained from infants that all we see, feel, hear is imagination. I am not convinced that it is.

There are many who believe that we exist on something similar to a system of linked yet independent realities rather like a system of plains. Each is separate and yet linked and interdependent on each other.

 

You assumed I started the thread for a reason that just isn't true. Lillally and I started a conversation in a thread that wasn't the right thread to discuss it in. We then PM'd. We then thought that it would be nice to start a thread where we could discuss it with others instead of just us two. I only included the PM's to introduce the subject as I was too lazy to re-write it and there wasn't really a subject, just ideas.

Sorry to hear you jumped to the conclusion that it was self loathing and failed to see that it was simply a conversation between friends. Do you always assume the worst first?

And the neg rep was only because you judged my character without even understanding why I posted what I posted. You shouldn't assume you know someone just by what you think their intentions were behind a post. The fact that you personally took it as an insult makes me wonder what you're really here for.

 

Often to prove to ourselves that we're still sane


Hotwater

 

I don't think it, I know it. Reality is constructed by our thoughts. To ignore that would seem insane to me.

I also appreciate when I encounter people not as young as myself who feel this way, as it shows me that one can retain this thinking throughout life if they really believe it.

 

Then think yourself to the moon right now.
Turn yourself invisible.
Morph into a tree.


You can't do any of these things. Why?

 

Been there, done that


Hotwater

 

Because I've been conditioned for over two decades to think that it's impossible. I also happen to inhabit a body, which I am told is made of flesh, bone and blood and is created in the womb. A body which cannot morph, cannot fly, cannot turn into a tree. A body that cannot do anything except do what bodies do. To think otherwise would be insane.

A change of mind is no small feat. Because one can't think themselves to the moon is no reason to not believe that the mind is a powerful thing that creates reality. Reality can change when the mind changes.

Depression is a good example. Reality literally becomes darker, depressed, devoid of any goodness. An actual change takes place, as created by the mind.

 

And minds can't do anything except what minds do. Creating reality isn't their task.

Yes it is.

No it doesn't.
Reality has no qualities. The only thing that becomes darker is your interpretation of it.

 

the book i mentioned earlier also had a part in it about us creating our realities and how synchronicities are sort of examples of this when one is creating events from our mind, like when you learn a new obscure word then seem to come across said word a couple of times within the same day or so, its an interesting idea.

Theres other stuff in there aswell about how unreliable our visual perception is and how the brain is powerfull at tricking us, there was a good example of this in a diagramme in the book with a star on on side of the page and a grid with a black dot in the centre of the other side of the page, if you stared at the dot and moved the book left to right the star would disapear at certain blind spots in our vision however the cool part is when you stared at the star and moved it left to right, the dot would disapear however the gap that should be left in the grid from where the dot is gets filled with lines corresponding to the grid showing us that the brain is actually filling in what it thinks should be there......if thats the case how many more times does the brain do this without us being aware ?

 

We don't agree on any of these points. I don't know what else to say besides that. Thank you for your input though.

You seem to "know" as strongly as I do. Naturally you can see the division there.

 

I was thinking about that tonight. I was waiting to use the bank machine and I watched this woman walking away from my direction. As she walked away I wondered if she was really as far away as my eyes said she was. Our senses seem poor when it comes to sensing the reality of what they pick up on.

How often do you hear things that weren't really there, or are certain you saw a shadow or something move when really it didn't? Our eyes are slaves to light, they trick us because of it. Our ears don't always hear what actually made a sound. They're not perfect, and as you said, it can make one wonder about what they're missing.

 

I don't know. But you're onto something. Thought and attitude is important. I'm a pretty strong believer in nueral plasticity and the creation of new and fertile brain cells, but maybe I'm just a blind follower for reading a lot into and looking mostly to the writings of D.T. Suzuki... Zen to me is a pretty good guide, and there are two divisions of "reality" and/or "self", and it would not be any different in this discussion. Absolute atman, which depending on your degree of faith in higher intelligence can be seen either as an eternal soul entering and exiting bodies, spreading out across a field, or even just the natural source of thought and the physiological energy behind your life....but the other atman is your body, and your personal identity. I really think what you're speaking of is interpretation through this, and is not necessarily a discussion of reality as it is relative and subjective aspects of your own personal existence. That can reach such a point where as to take the place of reality, and what is (admittedly arguably) objective, which should be the basis of simple living. Which I don't necessarily preach because I struggle with my own atman, and disgustingly my relative atman having even further divisions.

Thought's ability to change what is objective... Not sure the extent of its capability, but synchronicity and similar phenomenon is real. I don't think anyone has even 10% or 1% control, but the limited ability is mysteriously significant, and thus to some extent the law of attraction is duh.

But this limited ability....
Look at satori for example... it is a flash... it is a little point of viewing our absolute source from one that is ultimately a personal experience. You can never be absolute, to have experienced that is thoughtless, ultimately unperceived and unbanked in memory inaccessible by the creature creating this thread. so take LSD induced ego death where the trippee claims that the experience is then indescribable but still having taken place in their memory...it is only a view from yourself but so intense the experience is only a representation.

 

damn, I should unleash my logic on this thread. haha joking !

some good posts coming out actually. I'm glad I was a dick head earlier.

 

as scientists are still at a loss as to what the majority of the brain does, i don't see how you can make this sweeping statement... it is your opinion, but i don't necessarily think that what you think is so....

i have ordered this book

i have to read this again and it could be a while before i digest it properly.... very interesting lines of thought

 

Good i'm glad you have, im sure you'll enjoy it as much as me, meybe you will be able to bring the ideas from there into the forums better than i can, i will need to read that book again and meybe more so to absorb it fully lol

 

Interesting idea. I like it. So in this idea of reality and self, is the self responsible for reality? Or, which is what I think you said, does the self simply interpret the reality which is there regardless as it's, "an eternal soul entering and exiting bodies, spreading out across a field, or even just the natural source of thought and the physiological energy behind your life?"

Ya, I see what you're saying.

Reality though, when experienced by us is experienced by our ego, filtered, then what's left is taken in by our objective selves. In an ego death experience (regardless of how it's attained) reality is wholly perceived by our objective selves, no ego, which is why it's perceived so differently. Yes, it's not experienced apart from ourselves, but it is experienced sometimes from the point of view of our self that is connected to that energy that is everything (the collective unconscious maybe). There is always a perceiver, but one can experience that and would likely think that they were a part of it, but the fact is, as you said, whatever we experience is always an interpretation of reality.

 

The problem with people's interpretation of ego death experience is the thought that there is a complete loss of self into the absolute. But as I said, to be that eternal cosmic energy is no experience. So to some degree this inner experience of the spiritual is subjective. I always experienced ego death as a blankness, void, and eternal white light...and not some barrage of colors. I do believe that the inner spiritual realm is the connection the eternal, but as for the rest it is filtered through the relative self. The discussion is then what are the parameters of reality... Your life of love, or baryonic matter only?

 

Realistically speaking they're partly defined by the ability of the body. Hence my response to neodude when he asked why I can't morph into a tree.

Aside from that though, I'd say reality can be as infinite as space/the universe.

Something that always stood out to me was a line I read from a prison interview with Charles Manson. When asked if he's ever sad that he can't be free to see the world he responded with something to the effect of, "You think I don't travel the world. The world is inside, not outside. I travel every night. I go and sit on the mountains..."

How real his, or anyone elses, experience with transcending their current reality is could help answer the question, "what are the parameters of reality."

I can't find it right now, but there's a great quote from a philosopher named Bertrand Russell from his essay/book, 'The Analysis of Mind' where he says something similar to, 'There are vast countries of the mind still unexplored.'

I'd recommend that read to anyone interested in consciousness, reality, memories, words, introspection, belief, truth and falsehood, desire, cognition's role in creating reality, etc.

 

I only read the begin but I fail to see where sleep has anything to do with the collective unconscious. That's Jung's theory that we all deep down have an understanding or more worldly, or less personal, experiences and adhere to social normality due to what is basically a perceived reality of what is accepted.

It's a waking life mentality, Jung's theory was meant to describe what governs our actions.

I will read the whole thread when I have more time though, seems interesting.

 

i am trying to understand exactly what you mean luna... please bide with me...

but as someone is always aware of it and we are all one, then doesn't that make it a reality, independent of the one currently not actually perceiving it in a physical sense?

idk... the same applies here? that although the baby, with it's eyes/ears/senses shut or covered, no longer acknowledges that something else exists, (until ofcourse that baby develops "object permanence"), it does exist, because the parent can still look at the baby, with it's senses covered, and can know that the baby still exists as does the parent... i am confused... mainly because you seem to be saying something different in the next quoted couple of paragraphs, from the ones quoted above...

yes, this is what i have come to think so far.... that we are all pieces that make up the whole.... separate, yet one...

i need to go take another look at what Heat said in response to the question i put to her about seeing other realities/beings... you touched on it in that quoted paragraph above...

so, maybe i have understood it wrong, but it does seem that you are saying two different things? please clarify...