Gay> ???

Why is the Transexual and Transgender forum in the Gay section even though gender has nothing to do with sexual preference? This seems presumptuous IMO.
And before anyone mentions the GLBT, that only begs the larger question: why is the trans community generally included in the gay and bi circle?
Personally, the only people that I've met who assumed I was gay just because I'm trans were homophobes. Everyone else seems pretty understanding of the difference between gender and sexual identity.
So does this have to do with pity? Has the GLBT added the "T" simply because we are mocked as being gay so supposedly that means they can sympathize with us? Or is the GLBT just as ignorant of the difference? If it's the latter then the GLBT is hypocritically ignorant, but if it's the former then they are just cementing our title in the minds of the ignorant instead of informing them. I think the misguided altruism is at least better than flat out ignorance, but it still has always bothered me.
But enough of my thoughts on this. Tell me yours.

 

stop whining and grow up. what does it matter? it's just words.

i'm an atheist. a lot of people consider atheism a religion, which i think is absurd. atheism is the opposite---the lack of any kind of religion. but still it's thrown in with all the world's religions. go figure.

 

Wow! What the hell was all that about?

 

I can see your point, truly, but may I ask what your sexuality actually is?

 

that dude wandered in here by mistake lol...you make a good point..the site is always looking for qualified moderators for specific sections...pm Skip if that interests you...also as a stoners lounge supportor i must share the lounge with some pretty unscrupulous lowlife opiate addicts and meth doers etc so we all gotta suck it[not a gay reference]up a little when the admin is grouping us into 'findable' sections...if it makes you feel any better..come hang out in the games section in this thread where all us other assorted rejects congregate

 

:toetap05:

Actually, you are right, if you have no place the games section if where most find refuge.

 

it just seems silly to me to get worked up over something as trivial as this.

and---gender and sexuality are very closely connected. otherwise there wouldn't be such polarity to people's sexual preference. we'd all just be bi. gender has a lot to do with people's sexuality. that's why i understand lumping the T with the GLB.

 

I think it is wrong that gender identity issues are linked with sexuality, as they are entirely seperate. Of course, transsexuals can be gay, straight, or bi, the same as anyone else can. But many people mistankingly link being transsexual with being homosexual, and I think that transsexuals being part of the LGBT just reinforces that stereotype. There are people who think that if you're trans, then you're also gay by default. Or that transsexuals are just an offshoot of homosexuality.

But then, there are also many people who connect intersex conditions (one of which I was born with) with transgenderism/transsexuals. Which is also wrong.

 

yeah, but that stereotype you're talking about doesn't stem from people not understanding that gender identity issues are different from sexuality. it stems from the fact that those people will never accept that people can change (well, actually 'correct') their sex. that such a thing is viable at all. to them a male-to-female transsexual, for example, is still a male even after the sex reassignment and hormone therapy, and if he happens to like men they define him as gay. whence they lump transsexuality together with homosexuality. which, yes, is wrong on all accounts.

if you want people to get the right idea about yourselves, you shouldn't lecture them about gender and sexuality being two different things. everybody with half a brain gets the difference. you should try to educate them that it is ridiculous to think of a post-op male-to-female transsexual as still being a male (if he ever was that in the first place).

 

That is exactly right. The reason why people see transsexuals as being gay, is that they believe a transwoman is still a man, and therefore if they like men, they are gay, not heterosexual. So the conflict comes from transsexuals identifying their sexuality with the gender they identify as (in this instance a transwoman will see herself as being straight if she is attracted to men), and other people identifying their sexuality with their apparent birth sex. There are also mtf transsexuals who are attracted to women, yet this is a fact that seems to go over most people's heads.

Wow, you just go right ahead and prove my point. What are you talking about, "yourselves"? I am not a transsexual. I do agree that people need to be educated that mtf transsexuals are not male. But I also think that while trans conditions are inexplicably linked with sexuality issues, and in particular, homosexuality, that task is made all the more difficult to achieve. It helps to reinforce the stereotype.

 

That's quite the offer after only 5 posts. Thank you, but I really don't even know if I'll stick around at this point. If I'm still around in a few months and I don't say anything too stupid you are welcome to ask me again

I'm straight(interested in men), but I wasn't into guys before transitioning. As the hormones started changing me I became less and less interested in females and more and more interested in men.

To me, the fact that I was straight both as a man and a woman seems to be more evidence that sexuality and gender are completely separate. However, I can also see how that could prove that sexuality and gender are closely related if taken from the perspective of someone who believes, "once a male, always a male.", so I suppose the big question is which perspective is correct.
I think the answer lies in whether hormones or chromosomes are more responsible for a person's gender, but here we just get roped into the semantics of the word, "gender".
So what should we assign "gender" to? Chromosomes are what causes a person's hormonal chemistry, so is the original cause more responsible for gender than the effects that actually bring about the physical and mental attributes that most people recognize as gender? Either way chromosomes are the first 'cause' of a person's gender, but if you could somehow keep a group of fetuses from producing any hormones and (for the sake of argument)kept them alive into adulthood, wouldn't they all be physically genderless regardless of their chromosomes?
I don't really know a lot about chromosomes, but if anyone happens to be knowledgeable on the subject it'd be interesting to hear your perspective on that example.

 

Chromosomes are actually the main thing that proves that what most people believe sets your gender in stone, and is the cause of gender, in fact are the proof that those beliefs are complete folly, and an illusion. I have heard many, many people saying that mtf transsexuals will always have a Y chromosome, and therefore will always be male. But, there are several examples that disprove this simplistic notion of gender. Take me, for example. I was born with ambiguous genitalia, (as the result of a condition called CAH syndrome) and mistakingly brought up as male due to that. I never ever identified as that gender, and always saw myself as female. Due to my condition not being treated properly, I developed some secondary male sex characteristics. Later on, (only about a year and half ago) I discovered that I was actually born with an intersex condition, and that my chromosomal setup is XX. To all intents and purposes, aside from a defect which led my body to overproduce androgens (which was the cause of the ambiguous genitalia, and the secondary male characteristics later in life), physically, I was no different to any other female.

Now, there is another condition, known as AIS syndrome. The people who have this outwordly resemble the same as any other female. And so in turn, will be brought up as female. Most with this condition also self identify as female. Most will also grow up to look just the same as any other female. However, the women who have this condition (which usually doesnt come to light till later in life) actually have an XY chromosomal setup, have undescended testes, no ovaries, fellopian tubes or uterus. Now, if a woman discovers she is suffering from this, yet decides not to tell anyone, she will never be treated differently from any other woman. So although I am XX, and AIS sufferers are XY, I am the one who is looked at as being "a man", or "tranny" or whatever other labels to class me as "originally male" exists. If it wasnt so ironic and tragic, it would be hilarious.

Now, also take into consideration that it is also possible for genetic females to be born with an XY setup (Swyer Syndrome), and for genetic males to be born with an XX setup (De la Chappelle Syndrome), then the whole "only females are XX, and only males are XY" arguement just falls flat on it's face. There are also many other chromosomal setups aside from the basic XX/XY ones that most people wrongly beleive are the only ones in existance. All of this means that the arguement that transsexuals can never be the gender with which they identify (as that is opposite from the one of the apparent birth sex) due to the prescence/non prescence of certain chromosomes has no real legs.

 

Don't hang on my every word like that. I've been on these forums long enough to know you are intersex, and I'm intelligent enough to differentiate between an intersex condition and transsexuality.

I just find it redundant to go into a script about exactly who I was referring to with "yourselves" and who not to. I assume people have some basic common sense to understand what I meant.

Obviously I should've just typed "transsexuals" instead of "yourselves". Would've saved me having to type this post.

 

One sentence is hardly a "script". lol

You may be intelligent enough to differentiate between an intersex condition and transsexuality, but many others apparently are not. In many ways, connecting being intersex with transsexuality is similar to connecting transsexualism with homosexuality. The two things are not linked in any way, yet a lot of people choose to do exactly that. Education is obviously the most important thing, but certain labels only serve to reinforce stereotypes, rather than help to educate people.

Yep, it would have.

 

I find that a lot. I often use generic words, rather than typing out individual titles repeatedly, but it always stirs someone up.

But, to the OP, I don't see what the problem is, what difference does it actually make to you? Who cares what other people might assume from the name. If you are happy with yourself and know who you are - what other people might think about your sexuality shouldn't make any difference. Before or after having an op or taking hormones. Every LGB forum, even charities have the 'T' added. At university, in my first year it was the Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual society, but people complained and so Transexual/ Transgendered was added on.

 

I can see why the OP would be narked. There are many trans people, and even gay people, who think that trans conditions should not be part of the LGB. Its not really any different to me feeling annoyed the times Ive seen intersex listed under the "transgender" umbrella. It is misleading, reinforces stereotypes, and makes it harder to educate people on the realities of gender/sexuality issues.

 

See, even still, to me that sounds absurd. Whether or not you changed your sex, which is fair enough, or whether you corected what gender you enjoy, which is equally so- the point is their is an alteration. This is not the same as being born with a basic sexual identity, in which we are talking being strait and remaining the sex which you had began has.

I think it's fair to include Transgendered individuals in the LGBT forums. I don't see why you would want to ostracize yourself from a group of people who would likely understand you, tenfold more than anybody else.

 

and for every person who wants T removed from GLB there's another person who'd raise his voice if such a thing would be done and start whining why the T is no longer part of GLB. you can't please everybody.
and say such a thing really happened and the T was considered separate from the GLB--you think that would really give people the right idea? that suddenly they would wake up and start thinking in the right direction? no. then there would be others who'd start raising their voice about why transsexuals want some special rights for themselves. it's pointless, endless running around in circles. people won't have a motive to seriously think about what transsexuality is unless that affects them somehow, unless they have a need to reconsider the definition. usually that means having a friend/relative who is a transsexual. and since there is a very small number of transsexuals the number of people who will reconsider their ideas is also relatively small.

and in any case this is a really trivial issue. there are bigger issues out there. and as far as i know transsexuality is still considered a mental illness in the DSM. why don't you first channel your energy towards getting that removed before splitting hairs about how others should label you.

 

I guess it just irks me when GLBT members get all pissy when I reject the title. I still have no problem with gays or bisexuals and I hang around quite a few, but I'm treated like a heretic as soon as I turn down an invitation to a GLBT event. The thing that a lot of the louder voices in the gay community don't seem to understand is the lack of desire to define my life by a title. They seem blind to the simple fact that transsexuals aren't what they are because they want to be seen as transsexuals. They are transsexuals because they want to be men or women.

True, but with or without the GLBT there would still be trans groups that could offer a sense of belonging to those who need it.
And in my experience the only trans individuals that I've met who felt that strongly about being included in the GLBT were people who defined their entire lives by their involvement in gay activism. To me it's the same as when people with terminal illnesses make an identity out of it. It all looks harmless, and even helpful, from the outside until someone finds out there was a mistake and they aren't actually dying. It's actually more common for these people to get depressed than to feel happy. Their identity becomes more important than who they really are.
But as you said, there is no pleasing everyone. However I still feel like there is a correct stance and if some people are ultimately going to be disappointed anyway it might as well be the ones who are wrong. Unfortunately I doubt I have the majority vote on this seeing as it's so much easier for people to assign themselves a mass produced identity than to find their own.

Of course it wouldn't be an instant cure, but it'd be a step in the right direction. I don't have a problem with organizations that keep to themselves but the GLBT is not helping themselves by being so loud and blunt. If gays and bisexuals just got together and gave others who are like them a place to feel accepted there would be an eventual growth in the number of gays and bisexuals who are "out". If you have a large enough number of any group of people they will eventually be accepted as part of the norm. But this isn't all that the GLBT does. Instead they feel they need to indoctrinate people with their message in similar fashion to religious zealots. Sure the GLBT has increased public acceptance of those who fall under its acronym, but it also cemented a certain stereotype that never needed to be there which only slows progress. Some progress is still good, but more is better.

Because I don't disagree that it's a mental illness. I only disagree with anyone who's ignorant enough to assume that "mental illness" is synonymous with "crazy" or "unsound". For example, there are mental disorders that can cause nothing but tone deafness, but nobody would ever think to call these people unsound(no pun intended). In the case of trans individuals the mental illness assumption is only a touchy subject because transsexualism is already a touchy subject to begin with and so it's more apt to be placed in the "crazy" side of the mental illness scale. But denying the whole scale isn't the best course of action IMO. It's only attempting to bypass the real social issues with a cheap deception.

In my experience a lot of gays are much less accepting or understanding of transsexuals than a lot of straight people. The places I have found the most acceptance are places that appeal to the alternative crowd. e.g. goth, punk, fetish ...etc. Contrary to popular belief these types of people are much less concerned with labeling other people than any of the GLBT members I've met and are also less freaked out by those who are different.
I've been to many gay bars and they offer a neutral environment at best. Sure I'm not as likely to get beat up buy a bunch of fist pumping broskies, but I certainly have never been made to feel accepted. Back before I passed very well I would still get dirty looks from people in gay bars and even mocked by some. Now if I get dirty looks in gay bars it's only because they think I'm just a straight cis female which tends to piss off the gays in my area for some reason. Either way, I've never been a welcomed part of their club.

 

When discussing Racism many people discuss "People of Color" My Latino sons will quickly correct any fool who calls them Black or Asian...not because they are Racist themselves, they simply are Latino and thats that. They both realize that the issue of hate is the culprit and they respond to being singled out for how they appear.

It seems to me this is much the same kind of situation, hate and ignorance are heaped on GLBT folks and while I am in no way Trans or even Bi I realize idiots lump me into the same category as being Other or Different. Same silly shit that happens to my sons but in a different way. People banding together to resist hate and ignorance have more impact than individuals fighting alone. Seems like a common cause kinda thing to me with our collective responsibility to educate the public about our differences while also creating a blanket of protection for all of us. Opinions may vary.