"Real Americans": Arizona's issue and their last hurrah

Hello folks, it's been a long time since I've posted here. I used to post mainly in the drug sections. Since then I've given up most recreational drug use (with the exception of those wonderful synthetic cannibanoids). In the last year I've become highly involved with my local Democratic party, which is in dire need of help (this is the case of most local Democratic parties in any 'red' state).

I come to you today to deliver a positive message: The change that progressives have been hoping for will not be coming now, but it's become apparent to me that it's on the immediate horizon - no more than 5 to 8 years from now.

The leading factor in this change will be the effect of the Hispanic vote. Have any of you taken note of how the Bush administration worked, especially during the 2000 election, to court Hispanic voters despite their (then) nearly-insignificant weight on the outcome of the election? This was orchestrated by a once slightly more reasonable Republican party which had interests in protecting it's long term longevity just as much so as winning (even though they technically didn't) that election. The aim was to appear benevolent to Hispanics here legally and pit them against their brothers who were attempting to cross our borders. This required, of course, the heavy use of propaganda aimed at that group. But from that time all the way up to Obama's candidacy, they were successful at splitting the Hispanic vote. The 2008 presidential election saw B.O. garner 67% of the Hispanic electorate.

What happened from here is not entirely clear - it's sometimes confusing to understand why the conservative group would lead itself to inevitable political suicide. Perhaps it was that the Republicans felt betrayed by the Hispanics, and in spite, have given the green light for spouting out intense disdain for immigrants coming across the southern border. Perhaps, and in my opinion, this is the result of the "Tea Party" astro-turf movement once controlled by Repub. Ops. going astray. They're now beating the drum of white supremacy and hatred for those with any pigmentation in their skin as the time of a white majority in this country ticks away. (They do go through a lot of effort to make their racism just subtle enough that it can't be pointed out in a picture - but to anyone with any sense who has studied the movement, they can easily sense the strong pro-white racial undertones).

Nevertheless, Political suicide occurred the day Jan Brewer signed Arizona's right to racially-profile anyone who doesn't look white and demand that they carry 'papers' or be imprisoned. Brewer's signature was the signature that ended any hope of the "tea party" movement or Republican party remaining competitive in our nation's future. The cutting of the party's own throat continued as conservative outlets unanimously sided with Arizona's sick lawmakers and IMO mentally unstable governor, especially when the law was struck down by a federal judge.

The upshot is that now the Hispanic voting block will no longer be a confused or an apathetic group of voters. The son's and daughters of those 'illegals' who came here desperately seeking a better life will now have a clear definition of who their enemy is and have a reason to vote them out of power. Keep in mind those born here are automatically legal citizens and have the right to vote as they reach the age to do so. The influx of the immigrants (ironically started by greedy businesses seeking to extort them by paying them half the wage under the table and not having to run them on the payroll) started in mass around twenty years ago. More and more of their American born children are reaching voting age every day. In the next 5-8 years the Hispanic voting block will be a huge factor.

Currently Hispanic voter's support of the Obama administration has fallen to just under 60% but this is understandable given that this group feels very downtrodden as they've been arguably the worst hit victims of the recession. But I can guarantee you that very few Hispanics will be voting for a Republican in upcoming elections after the fallout from the AZ issue.

The final nail in the coffin could come when/if President Obama decides to implement an executive order granting amnesty to certain undocumented Mexican immigrants here today - a rumor that has been circulating. The amnesty would likely be granted to specific groups with the largest group being undocumented children who were taken across the border and Americanized in our school systems all the way from grade school up to college. The Jessica Colotl situation (if you don't know - a straight A college student who became an undocumented immigrant without her consent during early childhood which our police and state officials here in GA wanted to deport to Mexico - a foreign nation to her) will become the poster child for this action - justification for how inhumane it would be to take those who came across as toddlers or young children and toss them out of the country they grew up in.

Amnesty (even partial) will help stop businesses from being able to extort immigrants and pay them below the minimum wage, under the table, and tax free on both sides. It will increase revenue for our government and assure that businesses don't hire people based on being able to pull them out of Mexico undocumented and pay them pennies on the dollar compared to citizens / green-card holders / student visa holders. It will stop the "invasion" the confused residents of this country are blaming on the Mexican immigrants instead of the businesses who hire them illegally.

Doesn't this sound more logical than building walls? Ironically it was Ronald Reagan who proclaimed "Tear down this wall!" in reference to the Berlin wall, while just over 15 years later his same party proclaims "Build the wall! Build the wall!" in reference to the fence along the Mexican border.

"Fear builds walls" - Roger Waters of Pink Floyd

I personally support the "world without borders" movement which is still very low key and considered too radical by many, but it's beginning to gain some traction. At it's core it makes absolute sense once you dissolve these conceived notions that have been hammered into our brains about what defines "sovereignty". What we know as sovereignty is becoming a very archaic definition as we enter a century that will almost certainly be themed by the movement towards a global economy.

http://www.unesco.org/new/en/social...ation/publications/migration-without-borders/

"...Imagine there is no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for..." - John Lennon

 

Nothing in the Arizona law allows for racial profiling. If it is there then it is in the Federal law also because that is where Arizona got the wording. A true progressive is either a socialist or a communist. Progressives want to destroy the country and make everyone slaves to the state. Progressives have to destroy so they can take power. No real American would stand for the destruction of this country and its way of life. Only illegal aliens from whatever country they are from are complaining. No law abiding citizen cares about being asked for papers.

 

*Makes long and detailed post on how Larry's opinions are wrong*

*Larry never responds*

Phew, glad I got that out of the way.

Doesn't matter, federal court blocked the worst parts of the law from coming into effect.

 

"No real american would stand for the destruction of this country and its way of life" Just what do you think has happened and is happening to this country now? Liars,dirty tricks,cheats,wars,remorseless rich,union busting,self serving politicians---the gamut of worst case scenarios are taking place before our very eyes. You,I suppose ,want to go back to the 50s when money was falling off the trees and anyone could get a job. Those days are gone and you know it. Progressives want fairness in our system. Hardcore capitalists want ALL the wealth and fuck the rest of us.

 

I guess, larryelkhart, you didnt read the point I made about how granting amnesty would stop the "invasion" of these people you so despise by putting all employment positions on an equal playing field. No advantage to undocumented migrants = no reason for them to keep coming over. Keep it this way, and they will keep coming in, and destroy your idea of what "America" is.

Also I have read SB1070. It basically outlines how to racially profile then conveniently says "this bill prohibits racial profiling". I might support the law if it required that EVERY person in Arizona carry their documentation of legal residency. But it doesn't require that. It implies that those who are white are "non-suspect" while others are suspect. It does echo the federal law, except the federal law does not give means for local law enforcement to directly handle the issue of imprisonment and deportation. Federal enforcement has a process they go through before deportation. SB1070 would circumvent the process. And most importantly SB1070 ignores that immigration is a responsibility of the federal govt. otherwise we could have 50 states with 50 seperate immigration laws. And that would set a precedent for states to start passing new laws that differ from federal mandates, which would basically dissolve the union. How's that for preserving America? Even as a strong opponent of the "war on drugs" I have concerns about California's Prop. 19 legalizing marijuana because of the same issue - ignoring federal mandates. Decriminalizing marijuana, even reducing it to a parking ticket sized fine, would still be in line with the federal govts. controlled substance act. Prop. 19 would defy the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution Article VI, Clause 2. No matter if it's a law that's supported by liberals or conservatives, it cannot override that or it risks dissolving the union. Get it now?

And Madcap, one federal judge blocked it, but if goes to the US Supreme Court I wouldn't be suprised if the law is upheld. 5-4. And you can probably guess which 5 that will be. That's what disturbs me. We are not out of the woods yet. And if the Supreme Court upholds SB1070 without restricting it, we have to wonder who the REAL 'activist judges' are vs. those who are sworn to interpret the US Constitution.

 

Who in the hell are you to say that a whole group of people "want to destroy the country" because they don't agree with you about the direction it should take?

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i see a problem with the rhetoric around this
"real american" - wtf is that shit

 

the final nail is if the party gets behind the bizarre effort to repeal the 14th amendment

republicans united against citizenship

republicans united against due process

republicans united against equal protection

they'll probably make bumper stickers, the douchebags . . .

[edited to note that they say they're only against the citizenship bit, but who can trust john kyl?]

 

do you have any idea how impossible it is for a person who wants to fill one of the crappy jobs that undocumented workers do to actually get a fucking visa?

they're illegal because there is no choice

ya know, if all you people who want to 'fix' the immigration 'problem' are serious, all you have to do is go stand around on the corner and wait for the truck

do the shitty work yourselves, and that'll be one more unemployed mexican who'll have to go home

what are you waiting for?

 

I have lived in majority Hispanic areas and know first hand that most of them make good neighbors and good citizens.
I am still perplexed as to why neither party has sealed the border, why they have not set reasonable immigration goals, enough people with the right skills, but not so many that wages are depressed. I don't want to see coyotes abandon campesinos to die in hot trailers in the deserts. I don't want to see wages so low that a carpenter, construction worker or landscaper can't support his family. I don't want the Sinaloa gang killing people on both sides of the border. This has all got to stop.

 

and it will stop when business interests no longer control the governments on both sides of the border

[not holding my breath]

 

I love this idea, the perfect solution.

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There is no shitty work; there are only shitty wages undercut by a job market flooded by cheap labor . All work can be dignified and should pay a living wage.

I have cleaned toilets, swept floors, shoveled snow, planted flower beds, fried sausages at fast food places hours before dawn, loaded trucks in freezers that were 20 below zero, laid shingles in 100 degree heat and much more. I have never turned down a job because of the tasks, only turned it down because the pay was not enough for me to live in a one bedroom apartment in the shabby side of town.

 

You seem to be taking a conservative stance here, doesn't the conservative philosophy also state that wages should be set by the free market with no minimum? So if the employer is only willing to pay 4.00 an hour for the job, shouldn't you take it, or let immigrants have it?

When I worked security at a Honda plant they hired an independent contractor from Canada to clean the paint tunnels. I got to be good friends with the supervisor and learned a few things. At 12.00 per hour to start, Americans would not do the work, the ones who took the job quit within a few days. His crew consisted of Mexicans and South Americans who were happy to have the job. I don't think they were illegal, but I never did know for sure.

The sludge that was pumped out of these tunnels into a holding tank was collected by a local company every few days and hauled to an approved landfill. And, despite a reasonable wage, they couldn't find Americans to do their work either.

In the plant itself, starting pay was 10.50 per hour. I watched countless Americans quit after only a few days, some only a few hours, while the immigrants were, again, happy to have the jobs. Most of the Americans who did stay on the job were 35 and older for the most, quit a few in their 60s.

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I pick and choose from the conservative, liberal and moderate lunch lines.
I do not believe that the free market should operate without a social safety net nor without government regulation nor without strong unions to engage in collective bargaining.

I know that Americans will do any job that is asked of them if they are treated fairly and paid well. The guys who clean septic tanks for a living are typically good old Georgia crackers who don't mind a stinky job to make a living.

I am not anti legal immigration as long as we decide as a people what is in our country's best interest. Too often business decides for us that computer techs and programmers are paid too much, so we keep bringing in green card workers until they are making the same wage as people who flip hamburgers for a living. (No offense to burger flippers; I used to do that myself).

 

Gardenguy---to echo what you said--it's been my theory that there's no such thing as a bad job--only one that doesn't pay enough. I have done some roofing jobs that ordinary people would absolutely realize that I am most likely crazy!! One merited a front page newspaper picture. BUT--I was paid very well.Point being,if the pay's right--the jobs right. Pay people 15-20 bucks an hour and they'll chop cotton or wash dishes ALL day long.

 

Say "Hi" to Glen Beck's ass for us, please.

Listen Larry, socialism is everywhere in this country. Social security, police departments, fire-fighters, paramedics, the list goes on. THOSE ARE ALL SOCIALIST IDEAS.

As for Communism, come on, please, your politicians have been spouting that Communism will be the downfall of America and it never happened. What has happened is the perversion of the capitalistic system. Communism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.

I don't complain about papers because I have nothing to hide, I complain about papers because it's none of the governments fucking business. Get it? It's the principle of the thing.

Now go down to the local Wal-Mart and do day-laboring for a dollar less than what the people there will do it for. That's called capitalism! Undercut those fuckers.

 

Some of the world's greatest leaders have used this idea to protect their people; Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin. Why buck an idea that's tried and true?

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