The founding fathers were slave owners

Maybe it has something to do with the name of this thread.....The founding fathers were slave owners, and the first post by Mr. Duck. I was laboring under the impression that these were the criteria to be used for the topic of discussion. Pardon my misunderstanding.

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True, but too many people hold the belief that the views of the founding fathers and how they set up the original federal government is exactly like how it should be today, conveniently ignoring the fact we don't live in 1805 anymore.

 

And my response is a resounding "So...?"

 

Maybe you don't, but I do.
Hellooooooooo Oklahoma!

 

So how's the 19th century? I hear chamber pots suck. I think Oklahoma's problem, despite not even being a state at the time, is that they've yet to leave the:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening

 

From an outsider's perspective, I can tell you Oklahoma's problems.

- Everyone has names like "Blake" or "Chase" or "Dakota"
- Raising cattle is as common as having a job
- Children are trained from a very early age to be mean to said cattle for no other reason that good ole' fashion, Bible inspired fun!
- Foreign culture is inherently evil, because it is foreign.
- Jesus is lord
- It matters and it is your business what your neighbors do
- George Bush Jr. was the best thing to ever happen to this country.
- Muslims want to kill us
- AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH HEEEELP MEEEEE

 

I half agree with you.

I think it's undebatable that most constitutional amendments were major improvements - however, I also think that it's undeniable that at least some of the discrepancies between the constitution and modern practice are terrible.

The DEA and War on Drugs come to mind.

 

*bump*

Slavery is still alive and well in the United States. And a lot of global slavery is very heavily influenced by the United States. I'm glad that this country has a rich history of freedom fighters, but I find pats on the back over it are mainly overblown and distracting from what needs to be done NOW.

 

Essentially you are saying "Throw out the baby with the bath water."
I remember reading in the news where a black person killed a white person, based on Liberal reasoning should I therefore accept as fact that all blacks are killers of white persons? History should be read and understood for the lessons it provides us in how we might improve the human situation, and not used as a means of justification to oppress others based on past events for actions they were not involved in. Real progress occurs when it is found acceptable by all or at the least, a vast majority.

Eliminating the founding fathers from political discussion would be like eliminating the facts discovered long ago from discussions in math and science. All beneficial knowledge acquired from the past should be used as a basis for further improvement. Keep the baby, but throw out the dirty water.

 

On a scale of 1-10 how far up your ass was your head when you wrote that? The founding fathers thoughts on health care for example have no basis considering the concept of medicine barely even existed at the time, let alone how their theories on it should be applied to a post industrial society.

 

My head remains on my shoulders where it belongs, might it be your head that gives me a constant feeling of constipation? You appear to have a belief that rights are based on what exists or what humans have created. What's your theory on how health care should be provided in a post collapsed society?

 

damn honkeys...

 

The problem to me is that many Americans look at the words of the ‘founding fathers’ without knowledge of history or the context in which they were said. It is not about trying to ‘discredit them or America’ but to puncher the myths often surrounding these politicians, the age in which they operated and the supposed ‘principles’ of the US’s foundation.

Even the term ‘founding fathers’ seems to denote some kind of semi-divine reverence bringing to mind ‘our father’.
For example people quote such things as - “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights”

Without realising that the probable writer of those words Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner all his life and although it is true that Benjamin Franklin became an abolitionist he came very late to it, having owning slaves right up into his late seventies and I believe freeing his last only some five years before his death.

Not all the ‘founding fathers’ were slave owners but then not all felt they needed them or were against the practice on economic rather than moral grounds, but I believe at least twelve ran that worst form of the practice, the slave operated plantation.

But really the slavery issue is just an easy example of what is being pointed out it must also be remembered that these early politicians were mainly of a certain class which often seemed to feared ‘the people’ and framed the constitution mainly in the interests of their own class.

At the time of the ratification there were property limits to voting and holding office which meant only about 10% of the population (white male population women, black people and natives didn’t get the vote) of the new nation had any chance of voting or gain positions of power.

Enfranchisement gains were made over time but some have argued that the US didn’t really become a modern democratic state until 1965 with the Voting Rights Act.

 

But Political Theory does not embody truth in the same way that 1+1=2 does.

1+1 will always equal 2. So that is KNOWLEDGE that should always be used as a foundation for further math.
Political Theory is not knowledge, it's theory. And a blind attachment to the theory and beliefs of men that lived in the 1700s is not that helpful in today's world. They just aren't as relevant as they used to be, time's change, we have many issues now that they never addressed, and it doesn't matter because they were just men themselves, not some sort of omniscient demi-gods.

 

They served their purpose

For instance they did wrestle the north american continent away from the native american inhabitants (and that was no easy task) and they were kind enough to provide us with free transportation to the new world although the accommodations were abysmal triggering several lawsuits both individual and class-action.


Hotwater

 

Not to mention a couple hundred years of steady work.

 

Perhaps it would then be more productive to address what might be considered to be relevant issues of today. As I've stated in previous posts, the best way to begin finding a solution to any problem is to first reach agreement in describing what the problem is. "Health care is broken" or "we need change" does not really produce a basis for rational discussion to develop.

I know it's an old belief no longer relevant today that humans prefer freedom to oppression.

 

True, I even have “Pick a Bale of Cotton” as my ringtone

Jump down turn around
Pick a bale of cotton,
Jump down turn around pick a bale a day.
Jump down turn around
pick a bale of cotton,
jump down turn around pick a bale a day.

Oh, Lordie pick a bale of cotton,
Oh, Lordie pick a bale a day.
Oh, Lordie pick a bale of cotton,
Oh, Lordie pick a bale a day.


Hotwater

 

I think this is why they made the nation changeable. They realized that times would change and issues would arise that 18th century had not even dreamed of. I think one overriding feature of our founding documents is that change is the American Way.

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I have to laugh whenever the issue of slavery comes up.Don't take what I'm about to say out of context,I'm not racist by any means.But,a little food for thought.First,african slaves were sold by either their own tribe or an opposing tribe who captured them.so their own people sold them.second,there were white slaves also,they were just called "indentured servants",some of whom were treated worse than black slaves.third,there were black slave owners also,so don't just blame"whitey".fourth,slavery was dying out anyways.even before the war for southern independence.the cotton gin was introduced,it was becoming less profitable.and fifth,don't act like slaves had it so damn bad.over half went back to work for their owners after being freed.the 1000's of chinese & american indians that died building the railroad didn't have that oppurtunity.I'm not condoning slavery by any means,don't get me wrong,I'm just trying to point out that it wasn't just one race that was enslaved,& I hate hearing the bitching about it.almost every race was enslaved at one time or another,& it was wrong for every one,but get over it.