US military killing journalists in Baghdad

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8603938.stm

"Playing video games with people's lives"

 

It is very much "playing video games with people's lives." I really don't understand why the military is equipped with such shitty cameras in this age of High Def, that they can't tell photographic equipment from weapons. Also, that they couldn't clearly see small children in the front seat of the van. Oh wait, I forgot, the US government spent all their money bailing out the banks, and protecting their oil interests.


I highly recommend anyone interested in this article to watch at least the full short video of what happened. http://www.collateralmurder.com/

What makes me feel even more sick, is the depraved way the soldiers laugh about killing all of them, and joking when the tank ran over one of the bodies. I really don't think I could bring myself to watch the 40 minute video, as what's in the 17 minute one is bad enough. :-( No wonder the US government wanted to keep this video hidden!

War is hell, sure. But there is such a thing as common decency and humanity. If the military operates without these things, then they end up becoming nothing but terrorists themselves.

 

Hmmm 2007 the height of the war, they saw what they though was a grenade launcher and an AK-47, they were given permission to open fire, K I feel good about it all, it's very easy and judge the actions of others, what was the last war you fought in ??

Peace

 

There is so much wrong with this, not just the mistake they made, but the speed with which they reached their (wrong, and quite obviously wrong, inappropriate, incautious and over-zealous) decisions to repeatedly open fire in a non battle situation, the cavalier attitude they took, the lack of respect for obeying the rules of engagement and the geneva conventions on the protection of civilians, that it doesn't really need to be explained that this is not something to feel good about on any level, and you don't need to have fought in any wars to understand this...

 

The van was unmarked for one thing, they also repeatedly asked for permission to fire on them, and got it !!! And yes to understand war you have to have fought in one, being a monday quarterback is far to easy...

Peace

 

An unmarked civilian van in a city full of civilians? How dare they? The commanders giving permission can only go on the information they're given. If they're told these people are armed, that's what they believe. Perhaps they should have asked the pilots to make sure they were not firing upon civilians, or perhaps they assumed the pilots were well trained enough and cognisant of the ROE enough to know that. It's possible the commanders are equally culpable in these kinds of mistakes, I'm not sure whether that's the case here...

And no you don't need to have experienced something in order to understand and make informed judgements about it, just like it's quite possible to experience something like war and not understand or be capable of making informed judgements about it... Being there doesn't mean you magically develop an ability to think logically, thoroughly, coherently and carefully or have access to all the available information... In many cases it's a disadvantage to an objective understanding of an issue.

 

Honestly, I don't blame the soldiers for what they did. Of course their actions are a sad consequence of war, but to wholly blame them for their actions is unfounded when considering their environment.

This isn't to say that they're blameless; they obviously have to suffer the consequence of their rash decisions, but in no way should they be punished so strictly.

What's more worrying is the desensitisation war has upon the emotions of individuals within it, and to make such life/death decisions on what seems to be a toss of a coin.

Can you really blame someone if they're led by the nose to believe that life is a 'video game'? Personally, I can't.

 

I agree! It's a dreadful situation for people to be in. Not to mention that the people who tend to be in those situations, are just barely into adulthood (18+).

That is why one of my first questions, is why they aren't given better equipment. If they had high definition cameras to be able to see clear (non-fuzzy), even colour images, that would surely be better. Then they would have realized that those 'gun-like' equipment was actually camera equipment. Admittedly, in the footage, some of the pieces of equipment that the men were carrying did look like guns. However, what they kept calling an RPG looked nothing like and RPG.

If the military were equipped with better equipment, things like this would be much less likely to occur. And by better equipment I don't mean bigger guns!

I don't believe anyone involved is being punished. No names have been given out of the soldiers involved. Just the footage was leaked, because it was something that the US government wants to cover up.

I agree completely with this. It is disgusting, that the soldiers become so desensitized to the fact that it is HUMANS they are killing, that they joke and laugh about a tank driving over a body of one of the dead.
War is not pretty. Obviously a soldier has to come to a place where they can accept having to kill someone and not be emotionally broken by that experience, as that is part of war. However, to go from that place, to where the killing is funny, and almost a sport, is taking it a bit far.

Not to mention, not having the respect for the dead. Even if the person is a terrorist, there should be some amount of respect shown for the life that has been taken. So, bodies should not be squashed by tanks, disfigured, or any of the other things that tend to happen.

The more these wars go on, the more people that are being sent back to war zones that have become emotionally disturbed by what has happened in those war zones. There is a strong military history in my family, and several of my relatives have served in wars, and my sister is dating someone who was involved in an explosion that occurred while he was in convoy. He's had to have a full hip replacement because of what the war has done to him. There are friends of his that were also in the same explosion, who didn't suffer injury, but are suffering from PTSD, and they have all been sent back to keep fighting. Anyone, who is experiencing those sorts of emotions, should ultimately not be trusted to fight in a war and make sound decisions.

A friend of mine also knows a soldier in the US Army who has been on leave after 2 tours in Iraq, and the guy is so jumpy that when someone with a deep tan walks up to him he freaks out, until he realizes that they aren't a terrorist and are not out to get him. What is the military doing about it? Well, they are sending him back to Iraq to go fight again. How is someone in that mental condition supposed to make sound decisions that include no harm coming to civilians?

That is why there is more to this than just naming and shaming the soldiers involved. It is the whole process of war that needs to be re-evaluated, how wars are fought, and how judgement calls are made. As much money as the US government spends on funding the military, they need to stop lining the pockets of Lockheed Martin spending on creating bigger more deadly weapons (that will kill more civilians); and instead invest in smarter technologies that will equip the soldiers with things so even in the air they will have better visuals than they would if they were walking on the ground. That sort of technology would at the very least reduce the likelihood of incidents like this happening.

 

After all the smoke had cleared the grenade launcher and AK-47 were found, also the were ground troops in the area that had been taking fire all that day, the right thing was done..

Peace

 

Source?

 

I find the fact you think the weapons had been recovered alarming, mainly in due part to your age - figured someone would have more sense by then - and because of your ridiculous attempt to justify this.

Even if such weapons were retrieved: is it really that surprising finding weapons in a war field? No.

Also, by your logic, if you're within a however many miles of suspected enemy targets you're automatically a target also? That's surely a denigration on your own troops ability to differentiate a potential threat or not.

Actually, you may be right in saying that as it would account for the high number of friendly fire incidents by the American army. Just saying...

If you think killing civilians without consideration for clarity is the 'right' thing to do you really are an asset to your country.

 

Thank you, I think I am too, unlike you, I have smelled and tasted war, I'm no Pompous ass that sit's back and passes judgement on others when I wasn't there..

Ridiculous ??? Read what you said, thats ridiculous...

And weapons were found, thats a fact, not what was posted from some left wing rag here..

Peace

 

Every main stream news source that we have in this country, lithium, what you posted came from a left wing rag..

Peace

 

I never said weapons weren't found, I believe I said 'such weapons', i.e. RPGs and AK47s. The only weapon found on the scene belonging to the causalities was a single handgun, likely used for protection within a war field.

I can't find any evidence that any other weapons were recovered. The US military has even confirmed that this is an authentic piece of footage.

Source

I always find it funny that people who haven't experienced war can't comment on it. Democracy works by people doing that everyday. If you think my comments on war is unfounded then by your logic you have to think the person with complete opposite opinions to mine is unfounded also. Just because you've apparently experienced something doesn't mean you have superiority of opinion.

 

I didn't say I have superiority of opinion in it, however I DO know what was running through the minds of the combatants, unlike you.. And once again every "legitimate" news source in this country had discredited that story and said indeed those weapons were found. Now thats all I have to say on the matter, i wasn't there, so further comment from me on this point would be stupid, I think the whole damn war was pointless, we have no business in Iraq to begin with our beef was with Afghanistan to begin with, as for that place, a week should be set aside to decimate that place, then put our boot on there necks until they can set up a legitimate government to run it, playing the fucking games we are is foolish..

Peace

 

The BBC is not a "left wing rag"... I've looked around quite a few news sources and I can't find anything saying that the group of people in which the two Reuters journalists were standing were found to have any small arms like an RPG or an AK47... You can in tell in hindsight from the way they were milling around in the middle of the street these were not combatants, but a group of civilians and two journalists, the fact there were kids in the van also indicates this was not a group of insurgents but civilians trying to help other wounded civilians. It appears this was a dreadful mistake, the killing of unarmed civilians. Yes it's understandable that the pilots made this mistake in the context, but it was a mistake and an important one, so it certainly does need to be thoroughly investigated to ensure safeguards are put in place so that the ROE and international conventions are upheld and that everything possible is done to avoid civilian casualties... I think you'd have a hard job saying that everything was done to ensure these were armed combatants, the pilots were eager to fire without confirming what they believed they'd seen, the instant they thought they saw an RPG, which was, on closer inspection, quite obviously the long lens of a camera. No checking, no double checking. They weren't being engaged, it was obvious that the group was not paying any attention to the helicopter or trying to get out of its line of fire. The pilots saw what they wanted to see and acted rashly and negligently without due care towards the civilians who populate this city...

Interesting article on the psychology of the event:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/world/08psych.html?src=mv

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2aOccbfAqE"]YouTube- Pink Floyd - Run like Hell - from Pulse




... :nopity:atriot:...

 

You make it seem like I'm bashing the soldiers who did this. I'm not! I'm actually excusing them given the context of the situation and blaming the inherent desensitisation of war.

That's a lie. I can't find ANY source that discredits this video other than Fox News, which by reliability standards is useless. The Pentagon, the Military and numerous other sources have authenticated this footage. If you want to sugar coat a lump of shit, at least do it with some clarity.

Source 1

Source 2

Source 3

 

Whatever, I'm washing my hands of this, the whole incident was dismissed, so rant on if you wish, it has little meaning..

Peace