So what's so bad about being effeminate?

I'm afraid this thread has become two members PM. I just open it anymore to clear it from my search file.

I tried yesterday but the on-topic post garnered no response. Wanna try again?

Yes, I took issue with the OP on that thread about forming preconceived ideations about gender roles.

This misconception how gay men should act is quite prevalent in the mainstream as well as perpetuated in the gay mindset as well.

As I mentioned in the other thread, no one should presume to tell another person how they should act as long as it is within some social boundaries of decorum.

If some 200 pound guy wants to present himself as Bea Arthur, so much the more colorful. If some slight guy wants to be Tinkerbell, just another hue in the fascinating pallet of humanity. I love the show - enjoy engaging all types of ppl that are in our diverse community and have friends that run the spectrum.

However, for intimate friendships, I tend to prefer guys in the more traditional male image. Oh, BTW, I think I am in that image and sorta resent gay ppl referring to me as "straight acting." It ain't an act, it is how I present myself - something that was incorporated into my being before I even realized how much I like sucking cock.

So, I doubt that I would ever hook up with an effiminate guy, but that's not to say I would disparage them or try to change them. In fact I have made love to a few of them (but that's a guy thing - making love to any variety of ppl ).

I really like confident lesbians, perhaps liking that traditional male aura that they sometimes project. In fact I've had some Lesbian friends with crew cuts and male attire who I got along with like they were guys.

Maybe, being bi for so long, I have not come to fear the effiminate guy like perhaps some more macho gay men. Then again, I have had enuf conflicts with gay men who challenge my bisexuality as some sort of closet or lording it over the gays.

Some ppl on both the str8 and gay side are just too quick to try to push their own narrow concept of what is proper onto others who may deviate in any way from their sense of normal.

 

That's what I was getting at - but it didn't seem to work

I haven'tread any either, just think if a thread changes topic and remains between two people - take it to PM.

 

I won't comment this on an open forum.

It would be the third quote between us and someone might yell "GET A ROOM."

 

Haha

I wouldn't be surprised!

 

You bring up some good points - and I tend to agree with you. I remember how Quentin Crisp was once called disgusting (on national television) by an audience member. The rude dude came across as very macho - and I just kept thinking why would somebody like Quentin Crisp - cause someone to say such a nasty thing? I suspect insecurity played a large part. But Quentin Crisp was always polite to a fault. It was the fact that he was wearing make-up that triggered the outburst.

--QP

 

Its disturbing how many people Ive seen saying they have no problem with gays...unless they're flamboyant and effeminate. I guess its one thing to see those behaviours as ''annoying'', and quite another to say they are ''wrong'', and that people shouldnt be like that.

From an early age, most children, especially males are placed into stereotyped roles based on their gender. And young boys displaying any signs of femininity is usually clamped down on heavily by society, and families. Ive often wondered why females are never actively discouraged from showing their masculine sides, yet males are very much discouracged from expressing their feminine sides. I think it may be, at least partly to do with this way that people are brought up, that effeminate gays are disliked by so many people.

If a 200lb guy wants to present as Bea Arthur, then I see that as a very positive thing! I am very much for freedom of expression, as long as it's harmless, which that clearly is. Most of the guys who have a problem with that, probably deep down wish they could present as Bea Arthur. They just wouldnt have the guts to do it. lol

You're not a macho gay man? I thought you were....

I do know that some gays think that bi guys are ''just in the closet''. Or that they see themselves as superior to totally gay men. It is disturbing that so many gays suffer discrimination from general society, and if that's not bad enough, they also have to suffer discrimination from certain quarters of the ''gay community" as well. Ive seen similar divisions in ''trans communities'' as well. I think it is very sad that some people who probably have faced discrimination themselves, and should know how that feels more than anyone, are prejudiced themselves. You really think that they would know better than that. If such people cannot even accept differences within their own group, how on earth can general society be expected to?

Your last point is so true. So many people have their own concept of what is ''proper'', and attempt to force their own ideas of ''normality'' onto those who deviate from that concept. For me, freedom of expression can NEVER be a bad thing, unless it is harming others. Seeing as effeminate gays hurt noone by being the way they are, I struggle to see why so many seem to have a problem with them.

My posts you responded to were clearly not on topic. Yet you seemed to have no problems responding to them until I took offense to something you said...

Besides, Queerpoet did not once tell me to ''stay on topic'' when responding to my off topic posts. In fact, QP himself was the one who went off topic by talking about feeling humiliated using the boys' room, and feeling like a girl. Those issues are not directly related to the topic, or even homosexuality in general. He also was addressing me when bringing that stuff up. So in fact, it was the OP who originally went off topic, not me.

Queerpoet has been on at me for about a week now to make a thread, though wont say what it should be about. I think it is very telling that there isn't a single thread about intersex on the whole forums. I wouldnt know where to put it though. Its definitely not a ''gay'' topic, as I think the discussion in this thread has proved. lol

Me and FreshDacre probably did go too far in derailing the topic though, and I apologise for that. I just get lost in those types of convos very easily!

Shale, I am sorry if it seemed like I overlooked your post. I did read it, and did intend to respond to it. I was just too distracted by the convo I was in. lol

 

To be fair, I tried to express some sympathy into what you said (not realising at that time that you had mentioned you feeling this way before) - and immediately you took what I was saying about lesbians not finding growing up gay as difficult as men - because they do not always appears to be gay - and took it out of context and made it sound like I was disrespectful.

No I can imagine it wasn't/ still isn't easy living as someone you really don't feel, but is someone tries to understand, don't keep pushing that sympathy away, but continue to express how you hate who you are.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I do find it frustrating.

 

Well, to be fair, anyone reffering to me in a male context I would find disrespectful, not just you. Im sure you meant no disrespect by it, but I did take offense to it. I think it's just a raw nerve for me, that after so many years of constantly being seen as something Im not, its just something that Im ultra sensitive about. And I do tend to get very hurt and lash out if I think Im being reffered to as that.

Well, I never lived as someone I dont feel I am. I was treated as (and sometimes still am) someone I dont feel I am, there is a difference. I do hate what I am, which is just me being honest. I realise that some people are not going to like hearing that, but it would be worse if I lied about it just to make other people feel better. I made a similar comment about wishing I wasnt born on another thread a while back. I guess its just not the type of thing that most people want to hear.

Maybe you do find it frustrating, but like I say, if I said I liked my condition, or the way I was brought up, I would be lying. I know it's the PC thing to say "love the fact that you're different". But I dont like it. And Im not going to pretend I do just to make others feel more comfortable. There's really not much point in me talking about my condition, or feelings, if Im not going to be honest.

We do seem to have got off on the wrong foot, and Id much prefer it if we just erased that, and started again. You do seem like a nice person, and I wouldnt want you to think that I have a problem with you, because I dont. Im sorry for pushing you away, I didnt mean to. Im just very sensitive lol

 

But by saying that about lesbians - I was not referring to you. Like I said, when I first posted on this thread I didn't remember you and had no idea what gender you were.

I said about lesbians because I am one and I have not experienced the things that gay men have. It was a general comment.

 

In that case, I took what you said completely the wrong way, in which case Im very sorry. I guess when I seen you had quoted me about the way I felt, then expressed the difference between the way lesbians are treated, and said it was ''different for females'', I just automatically assumed that was meaning you were reffering to me as ''male''. If you were not doing that, I can only apologise, and hope you can just forget my reaction to your comment.

 

I guess I can look that way - and my body language presents that way. I was raised by straight-acting rednecks and just took on the mannerisms.





No, can't really place myself in the effeminate category - even tho there are times I find my legs crossed like a woman, and not just resting on my knee. OH, BTW I am a top (Tho I've met a few very macho bottoms)

However, I admit to crying (I'm big enuf and mean looking enuf to get away with it) Besides, society has changed from the days when "men don't cry."

And of course I can touch other men because of my experience of making love to them. So, even clothed and in public I can hug - (embrace actually) and show intimacy with guys. Could that be construed as effeminate? (Only in America. When I first arrived in Turkey in the '60s I saw two very macho looking military officers meet each other in the airport and they hugged AND KISSED! - You're not in Kansas anymore Shale).

My ref to the 200 pound men being Bea Arthur is because that is where you notice it more. When a slight man is effeminate it seems more natural but somehow these large guys (and I've met them) who have feminine mannerisms really stick out.

 

My best friend is a lesbian female. She's very masculine, and if one hadn't known her before she started expressing her masculinity, it wouldn't be difficult to mistake her for a boy.

We're both 14 and in comprehensive (high) school, and she constantly gets laughed at and picked on about it. And she doesn't care. She laughs and says, 'Thanks,' no matter what anyone says. And I have so much respect for her for this.

In my opinion, sex has absolutely nothing to do with how a person should or should not behave or what a person can and cannot do. Gender stereotypes, and sterotypes in general, are nothing but a barrier humans have created for themselves. The world can be a pretty fucked-up world regarding issues like this and the blame can only be placed upon the human race for its close-mindedness and lack of willingness to accept others if they don't conform with general concensus.

But to answer your question, being an effemiate gay man or a masculine gay woman receives harsh responses from both straight men/women AND gay men/women. Some straight men/women are close-minded enough to believe that it is wrong for a man to effemiate and a woman to be masculine, and some gay men/women disapprove of anyone who 'makes a mockery' of homosexuals by pertaining to the preconceived stereotypes associated with them.

Personally, I find both response ridiculous. The root of the problem is humans and their complete lack of acceptance...the lack of acceptance of the idea that EVERYONE, no matter who they are and irregardless or gender, sexual orientation, age, race, religious/spiritual beliefs, etc., should have the right to express themselves as they wish without receiving any rude, harsh, hurtful or otherwise distressing responses from others.

We are brothers and sister on this Earth and beyond - so let everyone be who they want to be. You can change who you are on the outside but the inside always stays the same. Never try to change.

Peace and love. eace: <3

 

@Shale: Well, gay guys who are not effeminate are usually classed as "straight acting" (stupid term I know!) or as you put it, "Macho". You've never came across as being effeminate, so I just imagined that you were in the latter category. lol

You are a ''top"? What does that mean?

Well, crying is so not an exclusive feminine trait. I know some people believe it is, and males are usually encouraged not to do it from an early age. But if a guy cries, that just makes him human in my eyes, that's all.

I don't think just the fact you touch other men makes you effeminate either. In some western societys it would be classed as that, but in France or Italy for example, its just seen as normal for men to greet each other with a hug and a kiss on the cheek. Showing affection for your own sex is regarded by some people as a feminine trait, as again, in some societys, males would be discouraged from doing that. But I think it's stupid that a guy could have his sexuality or masculinity brought into question just because he can show affection for his own sex. In fact, I think guys who have a problem with that, are probably insecure about their own sexuality. lol

As for the 200 lb men being Bea Arthur, I think most people who would have a problem with that, would also generally have problems with slight guys who are effeminate as well. Its just that the 200lb guy being that way would stick out more visually.



@60s-70s-80s: I 100% agree with everything in your post. You're spot on with everything you said.

 

Very well put! I wish more folks thought like you.

--QP

 

A top is someone that prefers to do the screwing - as opposed to being screwed. Not really sure how else to explain it. LOL.

Divine (the 300 pound actor in John Waters early movies) always insisted he was not a drag queen. That wearing women's clothes and make-up - just happened to be how he earned a living. And that he had no desire to be a woman. He did identify himself as being gay, and was oddly popular among both gay and straight folks. In fact, his last movie (HAIRSPRAY) was a big hit. Go figure?

--QP

 

Ah okay...I think I know what you mean. There's really no need to explain it any futher! lol

I don't know who you're talking about, but that is a very interesting fact. If that movie was so popular among straights and gays, it sort of does contradict the fact that so many seem to have disdain towards effeminate gay men. I can only think that if you're famous, you are more likely to be able to ''get away with'' a lot more than you would be, if you were just an average person on the street. It is disturbing that he had to openly state that he had ''no desire to be a woman''. But then again, I think a lot of ignorant people think that men dressing as women is automatically linked to people who feel they were born in the wrong body. Drag queens generally don't have gender identity issues, they are just effeminate gay men, and most transvestites are actually straight men, not gay.

 

Don't get your hopes up on John Waters movies - it is a cult flick enjoyed by the more artsy, intellectual pervs, probably in more liberal, urban areas. I mean Divine eats dog shit! (No, really - it's on film.)

But it does bring to mind the artistic acceptance of transvestism in entertainment like the other '70s classic cult film Rocky Horror Picture Show where Tim Curry bends gender all over the place. But, that is entertainment for the more accepting metro crowd, being a popular NY play before becoming a movie. Wonder how well the movie did in Kansas?

However, more mainstream movies get wide acceptance of guys in drag from the first memorable one Tootsie (1982)with a rather pleasant looking gal, Dustin Hoffman. To Wong Fu ... (1995) showed an adorable Patrick Swayze, normally the hunk male lead in movies and a surprisingly convincing Wesley Snipes. Who'da thot Blade could be so feminine. I won't even mention John Leguizamo because I have seen his stage act portraying a Puerto Rican street hooker convincingly without any makeup or props.

BTW, there was a term a while back - MetroSexual, which I believe describes str8, stylish urban guys who are not gay but get mischaracterized as gay. I guess it would be like the makeup-wearing fops of 18th Century France. That is why effeminate gay guys do better in big urban areas than lets say Iowa or Kansas.

 

Hey, Shale: Don't forget SOME LIKE IT HOT (with Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis in drag). Plus Marilyn Monroe was part of the cast. That flick is a classic. But my all time fave is THE CRYING GAME: A very well crafted thriller from the 1980s. Don't know the actor's name, but the dude really did look and act like a natural woman. In fact, several people in the audience gasped - when the infamous 5 second shot of his private parts, suddenly appeared on the huge screen. That's a moment I'll never forget!

--QP

 

I know of Hairspray, Ive just never cared to watch it cos it doesnt seem like my sort of film! lol

What, you're kidding? Thats gross...

Again, I know of Tootsie, but have never seen it. I have of course, seen The Rocky Horror Picture Show though, and it is a blast! I think a person of any gender, or sexuality could enjoy a film like that. Its just fun! lol To Wong Foo is hilarious. I remember the main reason I watched it was because the thought of Patrick Swayze and especially Wesley Snipes in drag just seemed like it would be a hoot. lol Its actually creepy how much like an actual woman John Leguizamo looked when dressed in drag. In fact, I felt very disheartened cos he looked more female than me! lol

Well, not a lot of people know, but it was actually the ancient egyptians who were the first to wear makeup, and it was originally mainly men who wore it, not women. So if you're going by it's origins at least, women are expressing masculinity by wearing make up.

 

@InvisibleSoul. Yep, Shale is right about the notorious doggie poo scene (in PINK FLAMINGOS). It's near the end, so it was easy to keep my eyes shut: especially since I'd just had lunch, and didn't want to get sick. But Divine pretty much spends most of his time watching television and ironing clothes in HAIRSPRAY. Perhaps he was on a diet or something?

--QP