For anyone that doesn't know, the islamist group Islam4UK are planning on doing a march through the town of Wootton Basset with empty coffins symbolizing Islamic lives lost in the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. As you can imagine, people are pissed off. they don't want dirty, smelly muslims parading through their town! I think its all fair enough, but the outcry has been utterly ridiculous... http://www.************/group.php?gid=137180060485&ref=nf#/group.php?v=wall&ref=nf&gid=137180060485 But the thing that has been given most credibility in the argument against the march has been this facebook group which has over 75,000 members leaving comments like this: ' i think its a outrage, they should be shot and put in the coffins. its our british men and women out there fighting islamic nutters. i think they should come back and sort the islamic nutters over here.......' Doesn't it feel great to be british
Yeah I've seen a good few people on my facebook signing up to this. I die a little inside when I see it
its fucking annoying that the only way to post stuff on the group wall is to join up. I want to get into an argument with some squaddies but i dont want people on my friends list to think i support this... gonna have to debate this for a while...
Had a quick look for a group saying Islam4uk or whatever they're called can march wherever the hell they like but couldn't find it ... it needs to be made!
yeah, thats what i'm thinking aswell. Maybe make it combined with a 'don't support the troops' group. Quite a few of my facebook friends have gone into the army though, so that would result in me losing their respect... but fuck it, they've already lost my respect.
lol, check the group, people hate me. someone join up and give me a hand here (im the guy that everyone wants to kill btw)
if they are brits they cant march where ever the fuck they wont. Ha ha . We have to go threw this evey year in northern ireland ! As we are told its the queens highway and the brits own it
"If they want to march, let them march in their own country of origin." I love the way he added "of origin" as an afterthought, since, well, the UK is their own country. Hmm just throw a bit of racism in there too shall we, nobody's going to notice...
"we should put IEDs on the road and snipers on the roof, clear the place of good people and let the march happen and allow the sniper and bombs to fire see if they like what are lad and lasses have to put up with in there country" Good lord. Frightening (and not just the grammar)...
loolz 'They are you stupid boy, inciting terrorism & racist abuse etc etc Did you see this guy in the papers drinking and getting pissed and he wants sharia law what a hippocrite under this law alcohol is forbidden oh but silly me he is not in Islam he is in Gt Britain' actually posted no joke
I think Islam4UK is an absolute disgrace. They give the British Muslim Community a very bad name and they have some pretty messed up views. The fact they chose Wooton Basset of all places just tops it off. Saying that, I fully support their right to march. Freedom of speach is one of the things that makes this country so great (And ironically, if Islam4UK had their own way, we wouldn't have freedom of speach). If we let nutters like the English Defence League (And their equally ridiculous other half- Union Against Fascism) march and cause chaos in our streets, then this bunch of nutters should be able to as well. And whys that? As someone who wants to join the army, I like to know why you don't respect the people who, without, you wouldn't even have the right to say what you just did. I can fully understand not supporting the war (I don't support the reasons why we went into Iraq and Afghanistan. But since we did go in, we can't just withdraw and leave it in chaos. And, again although I don't agree with the war, look at Iraq now. Most people have 24 hour electricity, sewege, mobile phones, clean water and a democracy so it didn't all turn out bad- not including the hundreds of thousands dead of course) Aside from the last part (The poster obviously doesn't know that Islam is not a country but rather a religion) he is right. Islam4UK does incite terrorism, and it also incites racist abuse (It gives the BNP and EDL support) and alcohol is forbidden under Sharia law (Sharia law also means the hanging of gays, the execution of women who have been raped for being unfaithful, forcing women to wear Burkha's and stay in doors unless accompanied by a man and all sorts of other medieval and barbaric practises...) I also like how all of you have spoken against the narrow minded idiots speaking out against Islam4UK, but not the narrow minded idiots that are Islam4UK themselves. Ideally of course, the media wouldn't have made a fuss about this, and just let them get on with it. All it is doing is giving them unnecessary coverage and attention which I suspect is the whole point in their ridiculous march anyway.
In WW2 it was an entirely different matter. We were fighting for the survival of our nation, and if it wasn't for our brave troops then our nation probably wouldn't have survived. But using that as a justification for joining the army today holds no grounds, because in todays western wars you aren't fighting for your country, you're fighting for your goverment, and their will to turn worldwide politics in their favor. I can't understand how some people can be against the war but still support servicemen. Its the armies and the weapons that they yeild that bring the violence, pain and suffering to whatever country the US and UK decide to target. Its not as if you don't have a choice in the matter. If you don't want to invade and kill in a country that has no connection or affect don't join the army. If however, you do decide to join the army then that is the decision you're making. At the end of the day attack countries isn't going to help defend the UK. It's going to create even more hate and anger towards us, which means more terrorism, more death, all that horrible shit... As for the Islam4UK thing, I'm gonna make this quick since i want to get back to my movie: narrow minded idiots or not, everyone should have the right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression. If people don't like what they're hearing, they shouldn't listen. No kicking a fuss and turning into racist thugs like everyone in that facebook group seems to be doing.
Turn 'probably wouldn't' into 'wouldn't' and I agree So what about wars like Sierra Leone and Bosnia? Do you not agree with helping out ex-colonies(In the case of Sierra Leone) to stop death and Civil War? And Bosnia kind of speaks for itself (With the Serbian massacres being not much better then the Nazi's, although on a smaller scale) And what about the First Gulf War? Iraq invaded Kuwait and forced people to live under an oppresive regime. Kuwait asked for help and we granted it. And what about the Falklands? The people who lived there were British and wanted to remain British. One of my reletives now lives there in fact (although she wasn't there while the war was on). When Britain came along, Argentina wasn't even a nation and the Falklands were deserted to all except penguins. The Falklands were as a much a part of Britain as the Isle of Man or the Shetlands. To top it all off, the Argetine government was run by a dictator who waged a 'dirty war' on his own people.... Then there was the entirety of the Cold War. Millions of servicemen joined up throughout its course and there was a very real possibility WW3 could have kicked off anf Britain could have been in as much danger as WW2. Or let me guess, all our servicemen in those wars were baby killing sum? As for today, it could be argued that they are protecting Britain in Afghanistan (although I personally don't buy into any of that). Good things would certainly come out of a stabilised Afghanistan though- war which has ravaged the country continuessly for hundreds if not thousands of years would end and Britain wouldn't face as big a threat from people blowing themselves up. But eitherway, our servicemen indirectly protect us. Without them, Britain would be easy pickings and would again be in as much danger as in WW2. And there is always the possibility something will kick off.
But when you're fighting against a power you have to at least be sure that the power htat you're fighting for is the power of good. Whilst the western world may not be a regime as repressive as that of the soviet union or Saddam Hussein, there are many other evils that we bring into the world, often un-noticed, through our obscene love of power and money, and by turning countries towards our politics one by one we're creating a much bigger problem than any big dirty evil dictator.
What ever your views on the government their foreign policy and Western Civilisation, how is government policy the troops fault? And another thing I didn't mention. Take Iraq and Afghanistan for example. The troops didn't ask to go into either of those places, the government asked the troops too. The invasions of both countries were not the decision to the troops (So I don't see that as a reason to disrespect them and call them baby killers or whatever) Now seeing as we did invade both those countries (Again, not soldiers decision)- we couldn't just leave the country in anarchy. I doubt even you would agree with going into a country, destabilising it and then leaving them to kill each other. Now someone has got to do the dirty of work of getting the country back on its feet. That someone is certainly not you. It is the soldiers fighting and dying over in those places that are trying to make it better. And yet they still get this baby killer bollocks because they are doing the dirty work that no else wants On the other hand, the Taliban who plants IED's (Which are indiscriminate) and blow themselves up in busy market places genuinely are baby killers. Of course, civilians have been killed by our bombs, but that is an accident (Not saying that makes it alright by the way). The Taliban on the other hand purposefully target civilians. Basically, what I am trying to say is (Before I started to digress), how can you blame the soliders for government policy?
Duuring the trials of high ranking Nazis for war crimes following world war two, the so-called "Nuremberg Defence" (only following orders) was found to be no valid excuse for being involved in war crimes. The Nuremberg judges decided that "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him." Any soldier believing himself to be ordered to take part in a war crime (including being involved in an illegal war of aggression, contrary to the principles of the UN Charter) has the personal responsibility not to obey their orders. All the soldiers who take part in these wars of aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan are making a moral choice to do so and cannot be absolved of their responsibility for that choice. :leaving:
That Facebook group has more than 50 times as many members as there are residents of Wootton Bassett. Yesterday it was 40 times, tomorrow it'll be 60 times. It's Political Correctness gone differently sane.
exactly what lithium said. joining the army in't just making a career decision, its making a decision that you will be ordered to wage war on countries by the government and that you will need to do it. Sure, the goverment make the orders, but orders don't pull triggers.
So let me get this straight, you are now comparing British soldiers to Nazi war criminals? Anyway, we have now withdrawn from Iraq, so the argument doesn't hold. Afghanistan was a legal war according to the UN, and the soldiers that come through Wooton Basset are the ones coming back from Afghanistan, and Islam4UK is arguing against the war in Afghanistan- simply put, Iraq is unrelated to your baby killer talk. I mentioned Iraq to get my point across. So if your opinion of whether or not a soldier deserves respect is on whether or not the war is a UN-mandated one, then you should respect the soldiers fighting in Afghanstan? If thats not the case, why are you telling me this? As for your UN talk concerning iraq, I agree it probably was illegal. But so far the UN hasn't officially found the war to be illegal, and there are many points arguing it is legal. On the other hand, soldiers refusing to go into Iraq would be going against British law (And indeed, some did refuse to go in) and it would have ended in a prison sentence and a discharge from the military. Out of interest, were you one of those people supporting withdrawal from Iraq and leaving the place in utter chaos after we had invaded? So basically, you only respect soliders if the government wages a war you deem just, but you don't respect soliders if the government wages a war you deem unjust? It just doesn't make sense to me that you blame the war on the soliders themselves. It kinda like shooting the messanger.
