Hey, I was curious, could someone help me out with the origins of paganism? Like when it all started..... by who... why... and where? somethings from a site would be awesome.... and please.. only respond if your seriouse about this... Peace, Love, and Unity.
Paganism in the literal sense has existed for as long as humanity. It's therefore impossible to trace. For information specific to wicca this article http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_hist.htm should help.
I think what she means is.... (and it's really quite obvious)... that a lot of pagan practises have developed with mankind and therefor evolved, just like it's evolving at this very moment. There are no real dogma's, no upper leader (like the pope).. it just people following more or less the same paths. The origins of the word that people started using for this group.. in english 'pagan'.. is a whole other discussion and I'm not too sure about that, since english isn't my native language. I think the word that best resembles it in my language (Dutch, = 'heiden') was introduced by the church, since they needed to distinguish between the 'true' followers of Jesus etc and 'the rest'.. 'the rest' often being pagan.. which is a bit narrow minded ofcourse..
Pagans are responsible for the Giza Pyramids, the Parthenon, the sculptures of Phideas, the plays of Sophocles, the philosophy of Socrates and Plato. Pagans built some of the greatest libraries and centers of knowledge in the ancient world. They speculated in evolution, and knew the Earth was a sphere. They started Democracy, philosophy, public libraries, the theator, and the Olympics. They also had the Mysteries as known to Pindar, Lucius Apuleius, Pythagoras, Anaxagoras, Heracltus, Empedocles, and Diogenes. The Mysteries were international. 500 years before "Christ" Herodotus witnessed a rite to the "Passion of Osiris" representing his death and rebirth. The same story as the "Passion of Dionysus" in Greece. The Osiris passion can be traced to 4,500 years ago as found in pyramid texts. So Pagans been around for a while.
Ehm.. ok.. I think my post and the previous one make it pretty clear that 'paganism' has a very wide definition and since we have no uniform holy scripture or leader anyone can pretty much think his/her own thing. Although I'm pretty new to this (something I've been saying for quite some time now) I think it's fair to say that I don't agree with Meagain. My whole point in the previous post was that while humankind evolved, so did their religion and their habits. I don't think you can say that people some thousand years back were 'pagan'. They were just doing their thing and it probably is very alike what we now call paganism.. I think that only with the rise of the monotheïstic/Abramistic religions there was a need to distinguish themselves. So when you say that 'we pagans' are responsible for democracy, philosophy, public libraries, theater, the pyramids, the pantheon etc etc etc... I think you are confusing 'culture' and 'Zeitgeist' with what we now like to call 'paganism'. Probably some people who helped build those things had similar believes to ours (=pagans).. but do all pagans bond with the Egyptian gods? I don't think so.. maybe some, but not all. Is there any connection between the current day pagans and the Greek/Roman empire? Sure, but not to the extent that pagans can be held responsible for all you mentiont.. and I think ESPECIALLY not philosophy.. if only because philosophy tends to be a meta-science and will 'think' about religion but tries not be one (and therefor is sometimes a 'religion' in itself). It's nice to see that you are proud of being a pagan.. but seriously... you can't give pagans credit for those things simply because you can't simply call the Greek, Roman, Egyptian and whatever cultures/religions/gods 'pagan'. There is way more to that.
the origins of the word "pagan" had to do with how the christian gospel message was spread during the first few centuries of the common era (A.D. = anno domini)... the first ones who brought the word of the arrival, execution, and resurrection of the long-awaited jewish messiah to the edges of the roman empire (and indeed far beyond), especially during the apostolic era & very early "church father" era would deliver their gospel (= "good news") to the natural site of discussions about the "one true god" of the hebrews & christians - the synagogue... many gentiles were ready to reject the traditional nominal polytheism of the classical pantheons (as well as abberations, abominations, and mystery-cult imports from farther east) in favor of a worship centered on one god, creator of the heavens and earth... but were perhaps not quite ready to go the whole way & convert to judaism - circumcision, kosher diet, ritual purity laws, etc...) --- these folks were called "good fearers" & were the natural target for st paul's version of what it would take to be a member of the community of the new covenant (i.e. "the mystical body of christ" etc...) and the vast majority of the jews who were spread thoughout the roman empire (some estimates place jewish % of total roman empire population at 10% !) were located in the larger cities, so the majority of those who were ready to become members of this new, realized-messiah version of judaism (followers of the christos = messiah = annointed of god), the christians, were in the cities... after the destruction of the temple in jerusalem, and the diaspora of the people of israel by the might of rome, the jews and christians became more & more distinct as religious & political entities... but even for several centuries after the destruction of jerusalem ) & with it the jewish temple cult, & also much of the leadership of the jerusalem christian community (led by james the just, brother of jesus)...), the christian congregations were mostly urban, while those who lived in the rural areas still worshipped the old gods in the old ways... the term "pagan" originally meant only that one was a "country-dweller" (or, perhaps, modern equivalents might be: hick, hayseed, hillbilly, ridgerunner, bumpkin, country cousin, etc...) and the gods worshipped in gaul or thule were certainly different in name (if not entirely in function) from those worshipped in iberia or italia or thrace... so there were many different "flavors" of pagan, but what they shared was an ignorance of the "good news" being proclaimed in the synagogues, & then catacombs, & then churches, & then cathedrals, about the "latest & greatest" dead & risen god ---> the son of, and very incarnation of, the one true god: yeshua ben yosef, issa ibn maryam, jesus "of nazareth", the jewish messiah (annointed, christos), executed by roman troops (allegedly with the cooperation of some of the jewish higher-ups) & raised from the tomb, returning soon from the right hand of the father, to judge the living and the dead, and bring an end to time and history.... (oh yes indeedy, dead & resurrected gods & goddesses were a _very_ common motif in many of the "mystery cults" to be found around the perimeter of the mediterranean basin...) the christian gospel & its priests & missionaries spread throughout europe over the next several centuries, but there were places in europe where the old pre-christian ways were still followed well into the 1700s... even today in (eastern orthodox) christian greece, there are those who will bring flowers to the altar of demeter/kore (persephone & ceres) at the temple of eleuisis... ~ (semi-humorous historical ethnic side-note: in russia, non-edible mushrooms are often nick-named "pagyanski" or "little pagans"... heh...) ~~~~~~~~~~~~ related perjorative terms: heathens infidels apostates heretics moors idolaters witches etc...
gnrm23: Thanks, that's very informative. Look I'm only trying to help you. Any 'ignorance' is simply that I don't know. Were in the same boat on this one. Velvet's right, I was referring to the practises and general beliefs. Which as far as I know was the earliest form of religion. It is impossible to say who started those beliefs, as they are so widespread and there are almost no written records. It would be nice if everything has a clear and logical begining, but it doesn't. Especially with something going that far back. Sorry to disappoint. There are similarities between all religions, all serve the basic function of providing understanding and comfort. Those between Christanity and paganism probably stem from when Christanity was trying to assert itself. To make it more palatable for people many of their existing 'pagan' beliefs ansd customs were adopted by the church (e.g triple aspect of the god = holy trinity, timing of holy days etc ) PS Cynical bastard aren't ya?
ummmm, i read a lot? ...sometimes for me a few hours of inexpensive entertainment might consist of going to a library or uni booksale (esp. "bag o' books for $5" last daze sales... heh...) & that bag o books can give me weeks, or even months, of reading... & books are better than TV... & the internet is nice, but it may be possible to find in-depth stuff on paper that may not ever flow across your CRT (& vice versa, perhaps...) bzzzzzt...
That's the thing I REALLY don't like about myself... I have a huge interest in a lot of things and my favorite pass time is to absorb information.. but I just can't seem to remember exact details/dates/names.. so I know a little about a lot but there are only a few areas that I really know a lot about. Ah well.. can't have everything I guess
Who should we give the credit to, then? I mean, the greeks were pagan, and so were the Egyptians. Pagan is an umbrella term for nature-oriented, multi-theistic religion. Each culture was different, for sure; but their religions were similar (often their gods were interchangable, as they held similar roles in each pantheon). You're right that there's no one pagan religion, just like there is more than one Monotheistic religion. To jester: paganism is a natural spirituality. It had a fuzzy beginning, it wasn't like there was some guy who said "hmm, maybe there's all these gods and we should pray to them..." It slowly evolved from animism, evolve being the key word. It wasn't a sudden change. This animistic-paganistic trend goes as far back into human history as we can tell.
lol, it was the christians who came to use the term to label the dumb hicks who lived so far in the sticks that they's never heard the word... the "hicks" just figured that they would worship in the old ways, giving right "juice" to the gods of their ancestors... while the christian sect mutated from a jewish messianic splinter group, to a persecuted cult, to a tolerated mystery religion,to the official belief system of the lands once called the roman empire, to being pretty much mandatory for everyone in "the civilized world"... & the followers of the old ways were ridiculed, forcibly converted, and eventually assimilated or driven underground or even killed outright... (& sometimes special treatments were meted out for: heretics, jews, moors, apostates, & "pagans" of various flavors; do googleseek out the fate of _hypatia_ (and her beloved books) /Xtians of alexandria, egypt following a particularly inflammatory sermon by their bishop - she was a poet, a mathemetician, a physicist, a parthenos, the chief librarian of the great library of alexandria, and "a pagan"... & she had to die... (& she was hardly "a hick" --- she was educated, cultured, lived in one of the most diverse cities within the old roman empire; and she answered to no man, did not keep silent when "her betters" (i.e. men, esp. men like the bishop) spoke, and accepted the writing of ancients as being worthy of study, and would not become a baptized sheep... so she was skinned alive by an angry mob, and the largest library in the world was put to flames...) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ nowadays... neopagans (various modern syntheses of the old ways) wiccans ("witches" - especially those derived from british occultics/synthesist gardner) heathens (esp. astaru(?) - modern followers of the norse/teutonic ways) eclectic santeria/voudon african traditions native american traditions old world shamanism australian etcetcetc............ ~ "kill them all; god knows his own" a french bishop, just prior to the st batholomew's day massacre, when asked how to tell the difference between french catholics & french protestants (so-called "huguenots")... ~ how much blood has been spilled over the last 20 centuries in the name of the prince of peace?
We're basically saying the same.. with the difference that I think it's a bit far fetched to call everyone 'pagan' .. I mean.. there were just people doing their thing and they did some great things.. and later on there came monotheistic religions and therefor also the sort of more distinguishable group of 'pagans'.. but in my opinion it's just not right to say the 'pagan' did all those great things.. humans did.. Besides.. according to you it sounds like everyone before the monotheistic religions could be called 'pagan'.. I think that is a bit of a broad/wide definition don't you think? grnm23 help me out here.. you have a better way with words..
Ehm.. are you saying that pagans were the first ones to come up with the concept of 'God(s)' and therefor that the Christians somehow evolved from paganism?
"Dumb Hicks" Christians were more of the Dumb hick since the Pagans knew a lot about nature and how to use it like curing the ill. I guess early Native Americans were dumb hicks as well?
Ehm.. aren't you forgetting about the Jews.. the first monotheistic/abramistich religion? And what about those people (Azteks/Inca's?) that worshipped the Sun(god)? They were probably sort of monotheistic as well.. Christians probably had a big influence, but not until later, when the Roman empire truly acknowledged them (something they had already done with the Jews.. the jews were tolerated and didn't have to bring sacrifices to the empire-temple and all.. but in later days the Roman empire itself became more and more into Christianity if I'm correct). After Christianity became settled, they had a chance to become more fundy and persecute people that didn't accept Jesus as their saviour (the Spanish Inquisition is a good example). However, before that, Christians themselves were persecuted and burned (there are some pretty gruesome stories about Nero I believe who loved to used Christians on a pole to burn as candles during his 'parties'). So.. in the end Christianity had a pretty big influence on minimising the more polytheistic religions (although hardcore Catholicism still worship a lot of Saints.. but that's slightly different from seeing them as gods). So.. well.. Christianity ultimately evolved from Judaism.. and maybe you can even say that Catholicism (which at first wàs Christianity, before the Protestants came along) are less monotheistic than the Jews. Just think about the Holy Mother Mary.. and the Saints.. plus the whole 'holy trinity' thingie can be viewed upon as less monotheistic then the way Jews worship. Christianity didn't become truely monotheistic in my view until the Protestants (although they accept the holy trinity as well, I believe). Interesting stuff...
well... the meanings of words do change over the centuries... and i suppose i should have put "dumb hicks" in quotes or something... (but look at the way NY & LA regard the territory between them ...) anyways, back in the days when christianity was emerging as the dominant meme across europe, the non-christian (& non-jewish) folks didn't call themselves "pagan" as a religious label - that was prolly more an epithet uttered from the primarily urban christian communities... nowawdays, the "back-to-the-old-religion" folks often tend to call themselves "neo-pagan" (while the biblethumpers wanna call 'em closet satanists or sumthin' equally ignorant, oy...) and many christians over the last 2 millenia have tended to lump almost everyone who wasn't a follower of christ into one gigantic group of "unsaved folks"... of course humans have been fiddling with their religions since before neanderthalers were painting dead relatives' shinbones red... (golly, maybe somebody will read huston smith's excellent book on "the primordial tradition" titlled _forgotten truth_, whaddya think?) but if you were to ask many christians about "us" & "them" - well, many might just say, aside from "us christians" (& maybe jews, & possibly muslims...) ---> pretty much _everyone_ else across the planet & throughout history were "pagans"... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (thought experiment: design a functioning 21st century world: historical background: a contemporary society in which christianity was "tolerated" during the time of constantine, but was never made mandatory, & all of the "other" religions were allowed to be practiced without the fear of persecution)... ("NOBODY expect a spanish inquisition!")... interesting world?)
The pagan systems had multiple levels. The comman man worshiped the god or gods of his region, the initiate into the Mysteries whorshiped the One True God. A simple reading of the Egyptian Hermetica will reveil this fact. (Attributed to Toth/Hermes circa 3000 BC) Go here: http://open-encyclopedia.com/Hermetica I am useing the term Pagan as all those recognized religions which are not Jewish or Christian. Hypatia was killed by being scraped with oyster shells, then her body was burned. The leader of the mob responsible was Bishop Cyril - He was made a saint for this act - St. Cyril. The Jewish religion was originally ploythesic. YHWH was one Jewish God, not the only one. The "Pagans" allowed the worship of "The One God" in anyway you wanted, much like Hinduism and Buddhism can exist side by side today, with no conflict. Christianity exterminated "Pagan" religions in order to gain power. Pagan abuses of Christians pales beside the extermination of whole towns, cities, and populatins by Christians. (Both rival Christian sects and Pagans). The Christians decimated Europe, and the Americas and plunged the world into the Dark Ages. Christianity derived from Paganism. Paganism is all there really is. All major religions are a form of Paganism. -St. Augustine, Retractions The Christains called anyone who would not submit to their power pagans as a derogatory term. BTW, I never said I was a Pagan. Go here for difinetions of the word Pagan (although I don't agree with everything stated here.) http://www.religioustolerance.org/paganism.htm
Actually, early roman catholicism (especially under Constantine) was very intermingled with paganism. That's when most the current pagan-like christian celebrations were formed. Christman, Halloween, Easter, Valentines...Christianity was struggling for acceptance in Europe at the time, which was predominately pagan. The solution was to make christianity more appealing to pagans by tying a lot of pagan tradition in.
