A question about transgender

It doesn't make sense, because you don't understand it. You may believe gender is all about stereotypes, but it is really not. I'm sure lots of men are more effeminate than me, so why don't those men identify as female? If gender is all about stereotypes as you're claiming, then all very effeminate males would see themselves as women, which isn't the case. I'm not rejecting "masculinity", I'm rejecting "male" as a label for myself. Seeing as you state you believe gender is all about stereotypes, then it really is no surprise that you don't understand how I feel. Take butch lesbians for example. They are more masculine than a lot of men, yet they still identify as female. But why would this be the case, if gender is completely down to stereotyping as you claim it is?

It's quite simple really. A man can be feminine, but that doesn't make him a woman, and vice versa. Male is a label given to men, and female is a label given to women. Seeing as I identify as being a woman, then female is how I see myself. A lot of things considered "masculine" and "feminine" are just gender stereotypes, and nothing more. A man can be feminine, and a woman can be masculine. But being feminine doesn't make a man female, and being masculine doesn't make a woman male. I mentioned before feeling quite tomboyish while growing up. Now, if what you're saying is true, that gender is completely down to stereotypes, surely I would have identified as male instead? I do have a very feminine side to my personality, but that has nothing to do with my identification as female. My tomboyish-ness comes purely from some of my likes coming down on the side of things that are stereotypically "masculine". However, that in no way makes me feel I am "male" or a man. Why is this? Because gender stereotypes have very little to do with gender itself. Gender stereotypes are purely a social construct.

By your logic, effeminate men would identify as being female, and tomboys/masculine women would identify as being male. That is not the case though. You claim to be open minded, yet you seem to think the same as most people do. That gender stereotypes are intrinsically linked to gender. When that is not the case at all. It is fair to say that in our society, and especially for children, it is not seen as acceptable for a male to show feminine traits. However, girls being tomboys is seen as being perfectly acceptable. A lot of what of constitutes "masculinity" and "femininity" are actually societal constructs, and have little to do with gender at all. As I've stated though, men and women ARE different, and that is the main point I am trying to get across. No matter how feminine a man is, he is not a woman, and vice versa. I identify as female, because I always identified as being a girl/woman. Female is just another term for girl/woman, so it's only natural that I would identify as that.

 

Because I believe what people call "gender" is all stereotypes, I think that gender does not exist. I'm not saying because you were a tomboy you should identify as male, I'm saying being a tomboy has nothing to do with being a male because girls are able to be it! I understand identifying as male or female based on organs, and organs alone. I get if someone feels those are wrong and wants to change them. If everything's fine with their organs, then I don't get where dysphoria comes from, because anything else about you is something you have in common with both some males and some females.

You, however, are intersexed... I don't really know what to say about how you should identify your sex. I just don't get what you say about your gender because I don't get anyone giving any credit to the idea of gender.

 

I do believe in gender, well male and female. However, the gender stereotypes "masculinity" (attached to males) and "femininity" (attatched to females) is mostly a societal construct. I would say I identified as female mainly based on sex organs. I was classed as male purely on my sex organs, and because I did not identify with those organs, female was what I identified with. But females have differing degrees of femininity, and the same for males with masculinity. My dysphoria came from feeling my body was wrong, but also because I was being addressed as, and treated as a male, and that deeply hurt and upset me. I believe in gender, because why would that upset me so much if it didn't exist?

I can't really explain why I felt so hurt by that, and still am. Because it's just something I naturally feel. I don't choose to feel that way, so why would being addressed by male pronouns cause me so much anguish, if there's no such thing as gender? The only real way I can try and explain it is this. If you addressed most women as a man, or said they looked like a man, they would be very offended and hurt by that. The way I feel, is no different to that. Why should the fact I was born intersex mean that I have no right to feel that way, when that is the natural reaction that most women would have to being addressed in that manner?

Gender does exist. At least in as much as male & female. Masculinity and femininity being attatched to a specific gender however, is mainly a societal construct.

 

I didn't read through the whole thread, but the OP has some huge misconceptions which are totally skewing things here.

1st, transsexual refers to a person who does not identify their mental gender with their physical one. It's generally a deep rooted thing that goes amongst the very first memories a person has. Genitals also have nothing to do with it, well to a point. While the good deal of transsexuals(at least male to female where the procedure is much more effective) would if possible like to have a vagina made out of their penis, many also don't. Being a woman in every other way and being seen as one is enough for them then risking potential risks of the surgery which can include loss of sensation.

Transgender refers to all kinds of things that break the gender norm, from androgynous people, to crossdressers, to transsexuals, and many things. It's an umbrella term that transsexuals generally draw the most light to.

But, back to the point at hand, to say there's no such thing as gender is just ignoring all the evidence in front of us. First there's the anecdotal evidence. Anyone one who has changed what hormones are flowing through their body at one point in their life can tell you what hormones are flowing through your system can greatly impact your thought processes/emotions. Then there's the scientific evidence, science agrees, there are some great differences between the male and female brain and how they function.

Transsexual people come in all genres just like normal people do. Most of gender is a societal construct, but some of it is not.

 

IS, if I may ask, I'm curious if your family was supportive of you "rejecting" the gender role they chose for you?

 

Mine have yet to know, as far as they know I just come off as an oddly feminine boy. You can't really say parents "chose" a gender role for you though, most people see the physical sex of their child as the gender said child will always have, for most parents it's never even a thought. As time goes on parents have these ideas of what their kids are, and what they will be and do. Imagine having a son for 20 years who one day told you they were going to become your daughter. Accepting or not that's gotta take a few minutes to process. Friends have so far been supportive though, nothing beat this conversation one day:

*imagine some sentences that would lead to these*
Well, yea basically I'm going to become a woman because I've felt this way basically as far back as my memories go.
That's wonderful! Does that mean you're going to a lesbian eventually?
Probably, well at least more on the lesbian side then straight
That's even more wonderful!

 

I can only speak for myself here, of course. But I would rather have a vagina with no physical sensation than have a penis with sexual sensation. Why would I want a penis when I don't identify with it, and it would never be used for what it was made for anyway? I'm not saying it's wrong that some TS's choose to keep their penis, or even like the fact that they still have one. But I certainly do not understand it. I always had issues with the fact that my mind didnt fit my anatomy. It is a very deep rooted thing, and it is hard to explain to people who don't understand, or worse, don't want to understand. My dysphoria was about feeling I had a brain/body mismatch, but also because male was something I never identified with. And being identified as that was deeply hurtful, and it still is.

I know a lot of TS's who do not like being under the transgender umbrella, as they feel it is misleading. And that they are being lumped in with other people that they feel nothing in common with.

About gender, I completely agree with you. Only the concept of gender stereotyping, is largely a societal construct. There are differences between the male and female brain, so the differences between the sexes are not purely down to just anatomical differences. Gender itself, is not a social construct, as men and women are different, and that's what gender signifies, the difference between the two sexes. Avatar's assertion that there is "no such thing as gender" is definitely misguided.

My father was dead by the time I decided enough was enough, and I was going to tell people who I really am. When I told my mother, she said she was not surprised by me saying I'm actually a girl. She said she knew at an early age that a mistake had been made by bringing me up as male. Obviously she just didn't want to "rock the boat" and cause any family upheaval so just kept up the illusion that I was male.

She hasn't really been supportive. She blames me for a lot of the wrongs in her life, and cares far more about how other people see her, than about my feelings. She thinks people look down their nose at her, and blames me for that, because Im seen as being "weird" by people that live closeby. She says she accepts me, but clearly, that is just words. Even years later, I have heard her reffering to me by male pronouns when talking about me to friends. Its funny how she says she knew from an early age that something was wrong with me, but yet still seems to hold on to an image of me being "male" and her "son" in her head. I really don't understand it.

It is fair to say I expected her to be a lot more open minded and supportive, than she actually turned out to be. She seemed to be far more concerned with how the situation would reflect on her, than about the suffering I'd been put through. That because people looked at me "funny", that that reflected badly on her. Im really disillusioned by how she's dealing with it. Not just because that its the opposite of what I was expecting, but also because she was my only avenue of support. So I was largely left on my own with it once I'd decided to change my name and things like that.

The rest of my family, I had become estranged from a couple of years before I completely "came out". I didn't have to worry about their reactions, because I was out of their lives by that point. The main problem there was, they were always trying to force me into a male role, and dictate aspects of my life. I kept resisting that, so eventually we just stayed away from each other. Which suited me just fine.

 

I think this is why most people with the means still go for it, since the risk of losing sensation is pretty small. But still for some people the idea of losing orgasm is a powerful thing. If it was guaranteed that sensation would be lost, I don't think I'd go for it. If there's no hope for it ever really being used what's the point in even having genitals. Like with F2M, their bottoms surgery doesn't really produce great results hence most don't get it, which all the M2F actually are pretty lucky in this area in the fact we can have hope. I've seen from F2M a lot the "well the one thing that sucks above all is I know I'm never going to be able to have an actual dick, to get head that way, to be able to have sex that way and be the agressor"

Though there does seem to be a varying degree of discomfort among genitals. Some trans people just don't seem to really care as long as the rest of them and society fits in as their target gender. Some are horribly disgusted by them and don't even want other people to touch them. Some fall into the middle. I guess I do, it's a love hate relationship with my penis. That's not what should be there, in the slightest, but regardless, what is there does in fact have a lot of nerve endings in it and does make good feelings. Like with sex, handjobs and oral I never had a problem with, maybe(to play psychologist) since I'm not actually using said genitals, they're being used by someone else. But actual sex, it's more like "ahhhhhhh, oh god this feels like consensual rape"

 

Maybe because Ive never really been sexual or even tried to have an orgasm, it's just something that I don't relate to. And nor would I wish to. If I had a vagina that had no sexual sensation, that would still be prefferrable, because it would look more anatomically correct on my body. I'd certainly prefer that, over having male genitals that would never be used anyway, and dont feel right on my body. You say what's the point in having genitals...well for me, right now, none. I may as well have no genitals for all the use the current ones I have do. I can understand not having the surgery if you don't have the means to do it. But having the means and still choosing to keep your penis and stuff...no, I can't relate to that at all. Again, Im not saying it's wrong, I just don't understand it.

I would say that being treated as female, and being addressed as that is a big part of it. I feel like Im finally being seen for me, and treated as who I actually am. And that is a powerful feeling. Certainly a feeling that most other people couldn't possibly relate to. It's just something that most people don't even think about, and take for granted. Being addressed as, and treated as who you feel you are. For most people, that just naturally happens. It is fair to say I am horribly disgusted by my body, and would never let anyone see it in it's current state. Its bad enough that I have to see it, without allowing anyone else to. For me, any kind of sexual act involving me with any kind of male genitalia, is just a no-no. If I ever do have sexual relations, I want it to feel right, and natural. So, I've deliberately stayed out of situations where something like that could possibly arise. Sex, and sexual activities, are something that should be enjoyed, not something I'd feel repulsed by. And the way my body is now, I definitely would be repulsed if anyone touched it in a sexual manner. I don't even touch myself in a sexual manner, so why on earth would I allow anyone else to?

I do feel like I've been robbed of that side of life. But no sexual relations is to me, better than sexual relations that don't feel natural, or right. Not just sexual relations, though. I've never experienced any kind of romantic relationship. And Id say that hurts me a great deal more than the fact I've never had any kind of sex relations. The fact Ive never been able to have a boyfriend, and just be in a normal relationship, is something that does cut me up if I think about it too much. But no relationship, is better than one which doesnt feel natural, in my eyes.

 

I know you said you didn't read the whole thread (There is almost a book written by the three participants here) but I made such an observation about a trans person I met at the beach.

Actually, this was a few years ago and she said she was waiting for the surgery to improve where they could guarantee sensation in the constructed vagina. I think, because she liked sexual sensation, that she was using the penis with guys.

I would take function over appearance myself, but that is because I have enjoyed sexual orgasms for so long. Also, being bi I could make it with a woman with a penis - and think there are quite a few ppl out here who could.

But of course we bisexuals are known to screw up the statistics and preconceived notions about gay versus str8. Perhaps there are no absolutes in sex.

 

I like girls that like guys that dress like girls..

 

I'm very sorry to hear that, IS. I thought they might've been supportive because it's not like you are a transsexual. Your biology says you're %95 female. So you're not defying nature, if that's an argument they might've used, but they did by forcing you to be male.
That's very sad; I hope you're surrounded by supportive friends.
When did you find out you were intersex?

 

I dont think my extended family had any idea about it, but in any case their attitude made me not want to associate with them anyway. Besides, at that time, I myself had no idea I was intersexed. I just knew I wasn't going to let other people control my life, and try and tell me what I should do, and how I should act. I dont think my mother knew I was 95% female, just that I was born "between sexes".

I didn't find out from my mother, I found out by complete accident. After years of not realising I should have been put onto anti-androgens, (something that infuriated me when I found out) I got my clinic to prescribe them to me. After which, I was told I needed to submit a blood test. When the results came back, I was told my female hormone levels were a lot higher than they should be, even though I was on a much lower hormone dose than was normal for mtf transpeople. (something else I didnt realise, and made me very upset) It was then I was told it was possible I that I could be in fact intersex. (At the time, I didnt even know what intersex was!) Further tests revealed that my chromosomal setup was in fact XX. (I should state however, that it is possible for a female to have a Y chromosome) After this, my medical "transsexual" status was removed, even though I still have to undergo anti-androgen treatment, and will need surgery to create a vagina. I personally know of at least one other person, (though he is the opposite to me, male brought up as female.) who was originally diagnosed with "gender dysphoria", only to later discover, he was in fact intersex, and mostly genetically male. Doctors should not be allowed to operate on intersex babies. Its surgery without consent, and in most cases, intersex conditions are not life threatening, or even harmful. (at least not physically) So there is really no need for it, except to appease a narrow minded, ignorant society.

I should add, that I feel many "transsexuals" are in fact intersex. There is already proof to show that some transpeople actually have a brain structure more in line with the opposite sex to the one they were born as. These people should be classed as intersex as well, so I don't see transsexuals as "defying nature" at all. For a long time I was medically classed as transsexual (even though I never identified myself as being that.) and a lot of my experiences are very similar to what many trans people go through. Gender is a powerful combination of brain structure, hormones, chromosomes and anatomy. Mostly these things are all in harmony, but sometimes they are not.

I'm not surrounded by friends, I dont have any.

 

I guess Shale summed it up pretty easily, I've enjoyed touch for too long. Orgasms are wonderful, and I believe an essential part of what makes us human. I don't like the fact of what kind of genitals I have to use and what role is expected from me because of them, but at the current moment that is what I have. Though the surgery is still worth it even with the small risk of fully losing sensation. In that case it's a gamble, and a gamble that's well worth the risk with the potential outcome.

 

I didn't mean that transsexuals defy nature, not at all, just meant that some people might feel that they do.
I agree, operating on an intersex child is wrong. They should (obviously) have the choice of what gender they're to be. It's been proven that gender is not a blank palette. I heard a story of a doctor who believed that gender is placed on a person, that is, gender only exists within the structure of society. He believed that if you were to raise a child to be the sex other than what he/she was born, that the child would adapt just fine. He wrote a book on it.
He was the family doctor for a family who had a child, a boy, whose circumcision was botched. His penis was damaged and the family doctor, wanting to prove everything he'd been writing about, convinced the family to raise him as a girl. Of course, there were problems; he rejected it consistently throughout his life. This doctor administered "therapy" to him, the object of which was to get him to accept that he was female.
Finally, his parents told him the truth. I think he had to get surgery to reconstruct his genitals. needless to say, he was scarred, so scarred in fact that he committed suicide.
If his parents had just let him be they could've saved him a lifetime of trauma and prevented his death.

 

There are people that think trans-people defy nature. Some people even think intersex people do, and it is beyond doubt that intersex is entirely natural, and it's not the person's fault. I think operating on intersex babies, is basically justifying society's narrow mindedness and prejudices. If I had been left alone, and allowed to express what gender I felt I was when I was old enough to do so, and live in that gender, I could have had some kind of normal life, and been happy. Instead of which, Ive had to live a life hiding away from society, and it's been impossible for me to form even the most basic relationships with people. I've harboured thoughts of suicide for most of my life, and still do. Life really isnt worth living.

Ah, the famous story of David...if there's any story that proves you can't "teach" gender, it's that one. David was operated on as a baby, so he would have been far too young to realise he'd been born with male genitalia. Yet he still identified as male, despite being brought up as a girl, and having no knowledge of the fact he was born with male genitals. Our feelings of our own gender comes from our own bodies, not from anything we're taught, or our envoirenment. There is a lot of evidence to show that gender is most probably hardwired into the brain at birth, and nothing can be done to alter that.

 

Most girls learn firstly from their fathers that guys that dont objectify them have their eyes in theirs more of the time.

So yeah, it can be about the challenge thing, and the insecurity thing.

But it can also be about daddy issues and a good eye fucking which supercharges them and they run home and rub one out on the boyfriend.

And some of the behaviour can be about flirting with the gay guy or just getting more excited around the gay guy so the boyfriend gets pissed and jealous.


You cant always take it on face value, with the girls it just about never is, always plans within plans. The guys are kind of the same too really.


If you are part of the minority, you are better off trying to see the world from others eyes, workout the real reasons people do the shit they do and keep a couple steps ahead of them. You are never going to be able to change them

 

I think you had probably seen teasing and dissapproval happening, like when someone had a bad reaction to a boy wanting to cook, or a girl liking to play with trucks. You were taught that behavior not matching with gender stereotypes was wrong, even that young.

When I was pre-school aged, Wonder Woman was on television, with Linda Carter. I made the crown and bracelets out of contruction paper, and twirled around and played with a lasso made of clothesline. My mother never said anything, but when a male friendof hers saw it, he kind of hit the roof. My Mom put him in check, but her approval didn't stop me from feeling like if a male thought it was wrong, he probably knew better than she did, because he was a guy like me. I began to think twice about expressing flamboyance. And it never crossed my mind to think that if I did that kind of thing, I was really a girl.

I never said you don't have a right to anything you feel. I just said I don't understand it. That's my problem.

However, you are 95% physically female, so I think your example doesn't conflict with my belief that gender doesn't exist, at all. If you were raised as male when you were majority female in sex, then your dysphoria is the kind I've said all along that I completely understand.

The things you went on to list are all things I understand, and spoke about at one time or another in this thread.

That's sex, not gender. The organs, the body chemistry, I believe in that. Sex. Not gender. The brain is anatomy.

Name one thing that identifies gender which is not physical, and is not stereotyping and societal construct. If you can, there lies gender. I don't think you can...

 

If that had been the case, surely I would have rejected, instead of enjoyed certain things that were considered stereotypically male. It makes no sense that some things considered "normal" for males did upset me, like having to have my hair cut and stuff. When other things I didn't mind, and actually enjoyed, like being bought cars and action games. Which were things I liked to play with as a kid. I think the hair thing was much more an appearance based thing.

Having short hair maximised my male features, and I think that's why it ilicited such an emotional response from me. I hated being seen as male, and I probably seen that as just adding to it. So again, my issues of being seen as male were largely due to the physical, and apperance, rather than any behavioural stereotype. I did have a feminine side to me, and showed that any time I could. But not in front of my dad, as he clamped down on anything like that. He wouldn't even let me have cuddly toys in/on my bed because he thought it wasnt masculine, and I shouldnt have had soft toys. One time he caught me with one in my bed, and he tore it off me. Regardless, my likes and dislikes fell somewhere in the middle of the male/female gender stereotyped roles. And my upbringing didn't do anything to change that. Just made me feel uspet that certain things I wanted to do were seen as "not normal" for me wanting to be doing.

You say that, but for a long time, I didn't realise I was mostly female in sex. I always felt that was what I should be, rather than that was what I was. (Note: Im particularly talking about my physical sex here, NOT my gender. I never felt I "should" be female, I saw myself as being female) And even if my example doesn't conflict with your belief that gender doesn't exist, the plight of many trans-people definitely should. Like I've said, there is scientific evidence to show that some trans-people actually have a brain more congurent with the opposite sex. So surely, that would explain the dysphoria for them, and why they feel like the gender they do?

I gave an example earlier of how women would be offended if you said they looked like men, or adressed them as men. (And vice versa, of course.) That has nothing to do with the physical, it's just a deep sense of your own sense of self, and your own gender. I have spoken to trans people, and some of their experiences echo mine. The frustration and upset at being addressed by pronouns used for the opposite sex of what they see themselves as. That feeling is not physical. Its a purely emotional reaction triggered by the brain. Its a feeling from deep inside, it has nothing to do with your physical form, or indeed gender stereotyping and societal construct.

 

I have, linguistically interchanged "gender" with "sex" because relationships are not all about sex and the language fucks that concept up by saying heterosexual or homosexual. So, I refer to "same gender" couples, which may be asexual - like most of Jim and I in our celibate brothers on a spiritual trip together were.

However, it can be observed that pre-pubescent or even infant boys and girls take on gender specific roles. Little nuanced things like putting babies in a cage or other blocked place that they want to escape. Boys will repeatedly look for a weakness in the cage or escape route. Girls will cry - a better strategy since someone will pick them up and remove them from the cage. Is girls' capacity for more communication learned? No, indications are that it is an inate part of their brain structure.

After puberty when the balance of hormones kick in, it is known that testosterone adds to all the "stereotypical" male behaviors - whether you were supposed to be male or female. Yes, women who have taken testosterone report a whole vibrant, aggressive mindset that they had never experienced with just estrogen alone. And men on estrogen - well they grow breasts, whether they want them or not.

So, for your argument about gender or sex or whatever, I think it best to let ppl self-identify and respect their take on their personal body/life.

These nuances get as complicated and as insulting as telling someone else what race they are. You know like saying Obama is black. I hate to burst the bubble, but fact is he is mixed-race and just as white as he is black. Now Michelle is a fine looking black woman, but Barack is actually, by culture more white than black. Remember when Tiger Wood pointed out he was made of other races than black? That caused an uproar in the black community that he was "denying" his race. Just like it causes an uproar in the gay community (if there is such a thing) when someone says they are "bi." "What you saying you are better than gay?" "Too ashamed to admit you're gay?" "Denial?"

Just as I hate gay ppl who have no concept of my sexuality and what turns me on at a gut level defining me as gay because I love sucking cock, I'm sure trans ppl resent being classified by society at large and the medical community based on their outside assessments.

So, Avatar, hope you have picked up some valuable information in this discussion before actually being face-to-face within arms reach of someone who may take offense at you redefining who they think they are or that gender exists.

BTW, Invisible Soul, I don't know if you are in England, Canada or where or how old you are but I read somewhere that in the US they have stopped defining a baby's sex in intersex cases until they get closer to sexual maturity. At least not doing any cutting one way or the other. Gotta be problems with that during childhood and I don't know how they suggest handling the neutral person (logically, let the child decide by temperament or habits what gender it wants to be).