Irrigate the deserts - Win win situation

Heres an idea I had. Instead of investing billions in building bombs to blow up cities which will cost billions more to rebuild they should invest all that money into building desalinization plants along the coast of Saharan African countries and build pipelines extending into the Sahara desert in an attempt to irrigate it.

There would be no shortage of laborers because the people in these countries need jobs and would be more than happy to work for less than the minimum wage in rich countries. Win win in the sense the Africans get some needed income and the countries funding the project get cheap labour.

The locals would also be in charge of all the tedious operations like maintaining the equipment and machinery and what not. If it worked it would be win win again because the locals would have way more inhabitable land available to them and the companies funding the project would have lots of crops to harvest. In a climate like that they could grow all sorts of valuable fruits and plants and the profit would easily cover the cost of the project. On top of that they would gain popularity with all the environmental freaks. Win win for everyone :cheers2::cheers2::cheers2::cheers2:

 

i agree it is a good idea, in some aspects.

not every country may be able to afford either the plants, materials, pipes, or the labor. should clean drinking water only be available to those who can afford to build desalination plants?

also, it would be dangerous to have people out in the hot african sun for like 15 hours a day, as there will probably be a lack of food, water, or shelter.

other than that, this would be a very opportunistic plan to help african countries, however it is not feasible. the price of clean water may skyrocket as the demand is quite high. also, as it has always been, countries will do everything they can to protect themselves. if it means making their citizens drink skanky water in order to stockpile weapons, then they will.

 

Where I grew up in was in the desert , The Imperial Valley.
It was irrigated ny a series of canals and water from the colorado river.

 

I didn't even think about drinking water that would be another benefit since African countries are short of just about everything water being no exception. I suppose your right though its not very feasible because the kinda people with the money to fund a project like this didn't make their money by helping people. They make their money from win lose situations. I suppose it could be started off on a very small scale and if it works maybe there'll be a snowball effect.

Desalinization isn't a very complicated process. It could be done on a tiny scale using sun alone. You have to start somewhere. Maybe giant osmosis setups would be more practical since that can be build cheaply and isn't restricted to the sun but the reason I'd opt for distillation is because the one thing the desert has an abundance of is sunlight. In fact half the operation could be powered by solar cells. Solar powered pumps, solar powered sprinklers/nutrient dispensers the whole lot.

The thing is this really could be an extremely profitable project so theres no good reason why the money hungry corporations shouldn't get involved. Makes you wonder what they really stand for. Money or just plain old fucking things up.

 

Yeah there are a lot of semi desert areas in America that could be irrigated. These desert areas do play their role for example certain shrubs and plants only grow in dry climates so if we were to irrigate everywhere these plants would become extinct. Somewhere like the Sahara desert though little or nothing grows there and its half the size of Europe (thats just a guess I've never compared the two). Its just a big waste of space. The least they could do is exploit vast sun showered land and start building solar farms. It would work if these countries cooperated with rich countries who would fund the project in exchange for electricity. I bet even the warlords who run these wartorn shitholes would go for it because whatever way you look at it its a money making opportunity.

Personally I would do it just to see a barren desert converted into a fertile haven and make life a bit for the people living in these countries but obviously not everyones like that and the potential funders will want to know whats in it for them above all else.

I drove right through the whole Navajo nation reservation in Arizona and I was pissed off when I saw how unfertile the land was there. All I really saw growing there were Ephedra shrubs, skinny little trees and various other dry land shrubs but they're pretty sparse. The reason I single out that particular area is because the locals don't destroy the place they leave it relatively undisturbed. Once you pass the border back into USA theres sign posts and billboards and highways and crap.

 

Your heart is definitely in the right place

It would be wonderful if the governments of the world would allocate more resources to feeding people than they do to killing them. I'm with you there!

But be careful how you do your irrigation project ... and where you do it. In the case of the Sahara, it's been tried ... at the Aswan Dam in Egypt. What they discovered after so many years is that irrigation left behind so many dissolved minerals that it essentially ruined the soil. And the soil wasn't that great to start with. It's not like when the Nile floods, which deposits sediments from the river and makes the land more fertile.

I totally agree that the world needs to be thinking about desalinating ocean water ... just be careful and do it right, is all I'm saying.

I drove right through the whole Navajo nation reservation in Arizona and I was pissed off when I saw how unfertile the land was there. All I really saw growing there were Ephedra shrubs, skinny little trees and various other dry land shrubs but they're pretty sparse. The reason I single out that particular area is because the locals don't destroy the place they leave it relatively undisturbed.

Sorry, but this isn't exactly true. The deserts of the Great Basin are home to a large variety of wildlife and indigenous plants. Like all deserts, it is a marginal and delicate ecosystem and it's easy to screw it up.

Regarding the Navajo Reservation (Dinetah) and the locals not disturbing it ... this is a complicated issue. The most direct reason that parts of Dinetah are so barren is because of overgrazing by sheep owned by the Dineh people. So on the face of it, it would seem that it's their own fault.

But there's more to it than that (there always is). The Bureau of Indian Affairs had instituted grazing districts in 1868 when the Dineh had been allowed to return to their homeland, following "The Long Walk" and their forced encarceration at Bosque Redondo in New Mexico.

By the BIA directives, sheep had been concentrated into these districts and by the 1930s, had already severely overgrazed them. Disputes between the Dineh and the federal government over grazing issues have basically gone on nonstop since that time. Periods of enforced stock reduction have alternated with periods of rapidly increased flock sizes.

The disputes continue to this day, with no real solution in sight. This has also been compounded by border squabbles with the Hopi people, whose own reservation lies completely within Dinetah. All of this is a long and complicated story, much more than anyone can write here.

But back to your irrigation idea ... I agree that desalinating seawater makes so much sense it's hard to understand why nations aren't jumping all over it. Actually, some Middle Eastern countries are doing it, but none in the West, as far as I know.

Wouldn't it make all kinds of sense for the city of Los Angeles, for instance, to be desalinating? Most of LA's water now comes from Mono Lake or from the Colorado (and the city takes more than it was originally alotted, at that). I'm sure you're aware that every last drop of the Colorado River is consumed ... by the time it reaches the Gulf of California, it's bone dry.

Instead of sucking the Colorado dry, why not utilize the largest body of water on earth, which oh by the way laps peacefully at your doorstep? It makes all kinds of sense.

Maybe you can convince them

 

I once worked in L.A. It is VERY expensive to desalinate because:
1. It takes a lot of electricity
2. The salty water attacks machinery and equipment like you would not believe. Maintenance is a very expensive issue.

With regard to the Middle East...they do this already. Do they want to do more? Who knows. IMHO, the muslims in Saudi Arabia and nearby states do not do much in the line of charitable/World Bank type projects even though they have the money. And we, ahem, are quite penniless at the moment. In fact, it kills me when I hear someone on TV still states that America is a rich nation!

 

It would be difficult to find a large-scale industrial process that doesn't. However, I specifically mentioned Los Angeles for this because of the obvious ability to use solar energy to power the desalination.

Fundamentally, desalination is a very simple process. When you evaporate seawater, the vapor produced is pure water and the salt is left behind. You then condense the vapor back to liquid water. What could be more natural than using solar energy as the heat source for the evaporation?

I realize, of course, that lots of theoretically simple things are very complex in practice. Nonetheless, there is only so much water in the Colorado River, and we must ask how expensive/complex/vulnerable are the delivery systems to transport that water across the desert to LA when there is unlimited water lapping at your doorstep, which can be produced by the unlimited power source in the sky?

That's true, but this is old history. Working with seawater requires extra effort to prevent corrosion, but the knowledge and techniques to do this have been understood for a long time. Look at submarines as an example. Seawater corrosion is a constant concern there, but the problem was essentially solved years ago.

 

I understand what you are saying Caliente. And I am not arguing that it isn't possible....of course it is. And I am not arguing against it......I would love to see it done. All I am saying is that I don't think it will be done anytime soon unless there are some drastic conditions OR some great scientific breakthroughs that are not there at this time.

All major engineering projects that require hundreds of millions of dollars of capital also require a cost/benefit analysis study. This study must be done up front. In the study, all of the other alternatives are examined. I can relate, from first hand experience, as a person that has worked at large utilities, that these projects don't pencil out. In fact, they don't even hit the gray area.

Like I said though, I have nothing against desalinization, solar energy or related projects....I kind of work in a related field. I am a person that wants to see the U.S. running on 100% wind, solar and our own natural gas.... but I know it is going to be a long, tough road to get there.

I am just reporting the reality of the world as it is....

 

I think it's more a matter of simple inertia and political will. The technology exists. Solar desalination is being done in other parts of the world quite successfully. What is missing in the US is the groundswell of opinion and political sentiment.

And as far as "penciling out" is concerned, compare this to something like the Central Arizona Project. There are four or five times as many people in the Los Angeles basin as in the entire state of Arizona. The CAP to date has cost more than $4 billion.

So even if the desalination plant only serviced a third of the city of LA, it would come out ahead of the CAP, assuming it cost less than $4 billion (as an aside, how many B-2 bombers is that?).

But cost-benefit is not the only advantage. Using the Pacific Ocean as your municipal reservoir means that the city of Los Angeles would no longer be subject to the droughts that periodically strike the West ... droughts that conceivably are going to get worse as climate change affects the pattern of wind currents over the Great Basin from the Pacific. Returning to cost-benefit for a second, how do you put a pricetag on being free from drought? Sometimes intangible benefits are worth more than tangible ones, even if you can't put a dollar figure to them.

(edit: a related point to make ... since Los Angeles would be drawing less water from Lake Powell, the states of Arizona, Nevada, and Utah would be less subject to the effects of drought as well)

Compared to Lake Powell, desalination is a much more efficient use of the water. Lake Powell, as you know, lies in some of the hottest, driest country in the hemisphere ... millions of acre-feet per year simply evaporate away, both from the Lake itself and from the canals that carry the water to southern California.

This issue is going to loom larger in years to come. The Colorado River is one of the siltiest rivers on earth--that's what makes it "colorado", the Spanish word meaning "colored"--and as the river hits the Glen Canyon Dam, it drops its load of silt. The net effect is that Lake Powell is filling up with mud behind the dam. Every year, a bit less water is available to be carried away to LA or Vegas. It's estimated that within about three or four generations, the Lake won't be deep enough to provide enough water to satisfy even the current needs.

Given that dire scenario, why not proactively jump on the situation now?

 

There are not too many places where desalination is used. Saudi Arabia is one because they have no other choices. They are so desperate for water there that they actually considered breaking off an iceberg from Antarctica and towing it up through the Indian Ocean a decade or so ago. Midway Island is another. I didn't google these but I just happened to know them. Probably a lot of small islands that cannot depend on rainwter. Do you know of others w.o. using google?

Ah, but it sounds like you want to make this the old California versus Arizona battle (not that I really care about the issue that much since I have only lived here half of my life and I think it is moot unless we enter another Dust Bowl in this coming Depression as we did in the last Depression, but, for the sake of a spirited argument Ms. Caliente, I'll play along). Both sides have a legal right to Colorado River water. Since Arizona is very close to the Gulf of California, Arizona could work with the Mexican state of Sonora and do desalinization too....the more that states lessen their use of Colorado River water the better, I suppose. Money should be no object. And then all of our cities, you in Tucson, L.A., San Diego, Phoenix...we could all chip in and share the burden. I think that is the best way to spread the cost.

BTW, on the silt issue...most dams have this same problem over time. Some even less time. The notorius 3 Gorges Dam over the Yangtze River in China, a relatively new project, is already in trouble.

Okay...Caliente....dire scenario you say? Move ahead quickly and proactively? It's up to you my new Southwestern Water Authority teammate and acting chairwoman, what do you say?

 

It shouldn't be a battle. It should be obvious to anyone that the Colorado River is a fixed resource, and that the population of the American Southwest isn't going to start decreasing anytime soon. Again, I only mentioned Los Angeles because the circumstances there make it a perfect candidate for desalination. It's not that the water needs of Phoenix or Tucson or Las Vegas are less pressing, but those cities don't have the largest body of water on earth lapping at their doorstep.

I reiterate my point that there's no logical reason for LA not to be pressing forward with desalination. It's not about disputes between California and Arizona, which is to say it's not about silly political games. It's about the simple fact that the Colorado River only has so much water. As you undoubtedly know, by the time the Colorado reaches the Gulf of California, it is pumped completely dry. Not a drop remains.

Where is Los Angeles going to get its water as its population continues to increase? The city could be a model for self-sufficient water resources. It's not a matter of technology or money. It's a matter of having the political will to knuckle down and do it.

 

Good Idea.I grew up 30 miles south of Fresno and that whole area has been known as the bread basket of America with its' divergent crops.It is /was certainly a desert and traditionally row crops there have used massive amounts of water and many farmers are switching over to orchards which can be watered with drip irrigation.Regarding the mention of minerals deposited in the soil and rendering it useless(I wonder if hemp would grow in such soil?),250 thousand acres were retired because of selenium contamination on the west side recently.So even aside from the initial cost there are definately other factors to study on before such a massive project would be feasable.I'm curious as to where the Jewish people get their water--they seem to have turned their area of the desert into fertile grounds.

Who will fund an african project like this?There are quite a few billionaires around like Gates,pickens,ect that may be moved by such an idea.They could start fairly small and grow as success became reality ,given they could make some return on their investment.Gates gives huge bucks to African countries for aids and Pickens wants to get into solar big time,so maybe that would be something in which they would be interested. I wouldn't want to see the oil companies or huge agri -business have anything to do with it.The only part I didn't care for is the mention of cheap labor. That's been going on for too long.

 

Where is Los Angeles going to get its water as its population continues to increase? The city could be a model for self-sufficient water resources. It's not a matter of technology or money. It's a matter of having the political will to knuckle down and do it.

It's the same question as Phoenix and Tucson grow huge in the next 100 years. They will need to do the same thing. They should jump on this too.

 

Yes. There are more issues involved with irrigating desert areas than might appear at first glance. That's not to say it can't or shouldn't be done, necessarily, only that there are lots of factors involved.

 

That's true, but once you relieve the pressure of having the largest metro area in the United States drawing water from the Colorado, the other Southwestern desert cities can relax just a bit.

From my earlier post ...

Again, I only mentioned Los Angeles because the circumstances there make it a perfect candidate for desalination. It's not that the water needs of Phoenix or Tucson or Las Vegas are less pressing, but those cities don't have the largest body of water on earth lapping at their doorstep.

 

Remember the buggers stole it in the first place.Neither here or there,I suppose.Mullholland and cohorts.

 

Well, they do have an agreement with the other states in the Southwest to pull water from the Colorado. But it's also true that California has always drawn more than the agreement allowed for ... they've always drawn more than their contracted share.

Presumably, the other states could sue if they really wanted to, but what would that accomplish? As long as the water is there, somebody may as well use it.

And you're right, the story of Mulholland and water in the Los Angeles basin is a sordid one. He got rich from the whole thing. But I suppose that's ... ummm ... water under the bridge now.

 

I'm moving....Peace Now.

 

University Park, Pa. (Penn State) -- A process that cleans wastewater and generates electricity also can remove 90 percent of salt from brackish water or seawater, according to an international team of researchers from China and the U.S.

Clean water for drinking, washing and industrial uses is a scarce resource in some parts of the world. Its availability in the future will be even more problematic. Many locations already desalinate water using either a reverse osmosis process -- one that pushes water under high pressure through membranes that allow water to pass but not salt -- or an electrodialysis process that uses electricity to draw salt ions out of water through a membrane. Both methods require large amounts of energy.

"Water desalination can be accomplished without electrical energy input or high water pressure by using a source of organic matter as the fuel to desalinate water," the researchers report in a recent online issue of Environmental Science and Technology.

"The big selling point is that it currently takes a lot of electricity to desalinate water and using the microbial desalination cells, we could actually desalinate water and produce electricity while removing organic material from wastewater," said Bruce Logan, Kappe Professor of Environmental Engineering, Penn State.

The team modified a microbial fuel cell -- a device that uses naturally occurring bacteria to convert wastewater into clean water producing electricity -- so it could desalinate salty water.

"Our main intent was to show that using bacteria we can produce sufficient current to do this," said Logan. "However, it took 200 milliliters of an artificial wastewater -- acetic acid in water -- to desalinate 3 milliliters of salty water. This is not a practical system yet as it is not optimized, but it is proof of concept."

A typical microbial fuel cell consists of two chambers, one filled with wastewater or other nutrients and the other with water, each containing an electrode. Naturally occurring bacteria in the wastewater consume the organic material and produce electricity.

The researchers, who also included Xiaoxin Cao, Xia Huang, Peng Liang, Kang Xiao, Yinjun Zhou and Xiaoyuan Zhang, at Tsinghua University, Beijing, changed the microbial fuel cell by adding a third chamber between the two existing chambers and placing certain ion specific membranes -- membranes that allow either positive or negative ions through, but not both -- between the central chamber and the positive and negative electrodes. Salty water to be desalinated is placed in the central chamber.

Seawater contains about 35 grams of salt per liter and brackish water contains 5 grams per liter. Salt not only dissolves in water, it dissociates into positive and negative ions. When the bacteria in the cell consume the wastewater it releases charged ions -- protons -- into the water. These protons cannot pass the anion membrane, so negative ions move from the salty water into the wastewater chamber. At the other electrode protons are consumed, so positively charged ions move from the salty water to the other electrode chamber, desalinating the water in the middle chamber.

The desalination cell releases ions into the outer chambers that help to improve the efficiency of electricity generation compared to microbial fuel cells.

"When we try to use microbial fuel cells to generate electricity, the conductivity of the wastewater is very low," said Logan. "If we could add salt it would work better. Rather than just add in salt, however in places where brackish or salt water is already abundant, we could use the process to additionally desalinate salty water, clean the wastewater and dump it and the resulting salt back into the ocean."

Because the salt in the water helps the cell generate electricity, as the central chamber becomes less salty, the conductivity decreases and the desalination and electrical production decreases, which is why only 90 percent of the salt is removed. However, a 90 percent decrease in salt in seawater would produce water with 3.5 grams of salt per liter, which is less than brackish water. Brackish water would contain only 0.5 grams of salt per liter.

Another problem with the current cell is that as protons are produced at one electrode and consumed at the other electrode, these chambers become more acidic and alkaline. Mixing water from the two chambers together when they are discharged would once again produce neutral, salty water, so the acidity and alkalinity are not an environmental problem assuming the cleaned wastewater is dumped into brackish water or seawater. However, the bacteria that run the cell might have a problem living in highly acidic environments.

For this experiment, the researchers periodically added a pH buffer avoiding the acid problem, but this problem will need to be considered if the system is to produce reasonable amounts of desalinized water.