So visiting Grandparents, which I tend to do every other week. Though normally just there to relax. However, Lately the going thing is grandfather being overly tired all the time. Now He is over 80 and in very good shape for where he is at, Just the problems do not mix. So finally, and I do not understand why I've held off on this for years, I starting researching into Medication, drugs and the lot. Nowadays its realy easy to do. Theres tons of feedback and information for them. I now just do not understand why Doctors/Health Offices and the like not take advantage off of it. Guessing it could be like an ego thing? But realy, they do not make these drugs, nor are the ones to supply testing for them. They are trained to see what the symptoms are in the body and from there are given basic information on pills related to it. And its not like they are microbiologists or anything where they can determine how the body will actually react to chemicals. Case example. My grandfather takes 8 pills daily. My goal was to make common sense out of the 8 pills (normally seen as impossible) So i proceed and get stunning results. Of the 8 are 3 Hypertension pills, to lower High blood pressure. So of these the fun side effects people have left feed back on is: Pill 1: Doctor: Recomends this for Night (Due to dizzy, tired effects) Feedback: Pill causes, Hip, Back, leg cramping, Restless sleep, the must on getting up to walk off cramps and pains. Pill 2: Doctor: Recommend this for day time Feedback: Commonly creates swollen Legs/feet which could get worsen effects over time. Pill 3: Doctor: Recommend for day time. Feedback: Commonly makes you dizzy, tired, lethargic, Back pain. Yeah that was the beginning, I switched him on the two pills for day/night so he can actually sleep now. And started a new Daily 3x Taken Blood Pressure chart to start getting rid of the pills need, Took Blood pressure and his was actually below normal .. Hence To much pills. Elimination begins, esp of the first two. From there its 1 Direct Pain Killer pill for guess what ? yeah the pills above namely pill 1 .. another Pain killer but for the legs and creates more cerculation hence for pill 2. Since to many pills, takes vitamin D, and Iron Pills. Which lead to another issue so another pill is being used to solve that one. and restrictive asprin use to the headaches gained O o. So in essence. 3 main pills, 5 to solve the 3 main pills =P The overall killer point is, the feeback is free, easy to find, and most people will have the same problems with it. I know each person does not react the same way, but they could be readily more attentive and maybe find solutions.
umm.. that's great and all that you are researching this.. but i wouldn't go ahead and just switch up his meds without consulting what you found out with his doctor.. you could in effect be making the situation worse in the long run.. the internet makes people believe they know everything now because with a few simple clicks they can find solutions.. but sometimes those solutions are wrong or do not work well for the person trying to use them.. so just a piece of advice.. consult the doctor first
I did not change it without logic, Actually a Relative of mine took the first pill as well at one point, found the efffects and immediatly got off of it. He would have had more seriouse problems if actually not spoken about it. The doctors only know the information you give them. They cannot tell you your symptons nor say effects on drugs, So what they are there for is to take the information that you give them and advise from there. This is why I have a chart that is for recording rates three times daily. No matter what doctor you have, he cannot just up and say what your blood pressure will be. He will take the information he can, and judge, but its not fact. In this case its just actually haveing Real time information, rather then just take and "hope" for progress. Which by results so far seen will never come. HIs first reading was realy to far below normal. This is not good, even by the doctors paper work, this should not happen. I am just now getting rid of the fabrications of what could be going on, to now haveing facts/statistics. Though Fact was, at the rate of which it was going, Things where not getting better. Adding more pills will worsen situation.
To add, Don't get me wrong, I am in no way advocateing against Doctor's, they are the ones given information on What the Medications do, and know the various symptoms and problems. However, I do believe its people's responsibility to research and record on the effects and problems they have while takeing these meds. I think most though, are just being given the meds and regardless of what is occurring, they are overly relying on them blindly. Hence even the less information given to the doctor.
Dr's have access to a database of drugs, their indications (what they are licenced - by whatever governing body holds such powers in whatever country you live in - to treat), contra-indications (what they should not be used to treat), side effects, dosages (where a drug may be used to control one or more symptoms), route of administration, interactions (e.g. using some drugs together with other drugs may increase or decrease those drugs effects) etc. Dr's also have access to Pharmacists who are people whom specialise soley in drugs and their effects. Who specialise in drug interactions, side effects, how the body processes, breaks down, uses and/ or excreets/stores the drug. What drugs are best to use in which patients given their symptoms, medical histories, co-morbidities. Dr's also have access to blood tests (virology, microbiology, pathology, biochemistry etc) as well as scans and general all round knowledge of the workings of the human body in all it's infinate complexity that you do not. You really shouldn't be changing your Grandpa's meds unless you KNOW, 100% what you are doing. Some medications have whats called a very narrow theraputic index, in other words, get the dose wrong, and you can kill someone. Others take weeks to build up in the body to just the right theraputic levels. You could be doing way more damage than you could possibly know. Your Grandpa has the right to question any treatment he is given, including his medication. He has the right to ask what his medication is for, and what, if any, the side-effects are. He also has the right to a second opinion, or even third if he chooses. But that opinion needs to be that of a qualified person. No Dr knows every side effect of every medication, but it's highly likely that your Grandpa is on a medication that is commonly given out to a lot of people, and any Dr worth their salt will know the side effects of the common medications they prescribe. What medications are they?
Hopefully they atleast get a semi detailed report on the stages on testing each medication in those reports, though find it highly unlikely. At best i hope they get a statistic report of the effects, engineering and results of each. Unfortunetly there is no such drug that effects everyone in the same exact manner. However if the average or high percentage number comes in the testing results then the more likely the drug will be passed and information will be generalized and given out to the market. Doctors and pharmacists only can go on, what they are given, which is a pretty fair amount, but they know as well not all effects of drug is going to effect another person the same way. Doctors only helping factor obviously collecting samples and sending it out for testing and recieveing a report. This is cause the people that do these tests took up education and knowledge in this regard, vs a another career route. In anycase its neither here nor there. especially in this case, cause most assume. current results are he is slowly getting better and able to sleep better. Still have a fact sheet going. These Drugs where not supposed to become a "Reliance" medication. He orignally took none of it, he went in to solve minor problems and was recommened to start on one of these to fix the problem. Fast foward to now and the issues are still there but also have multiplied as well as the medications. I have no problem blameing the medications on this, for that is what made this state. I do not however, believe its the doctors fault for the information in between was nothing more then normal doctor visist's information which is mostly vague. Hence none of this was properly tracked on both sides from the get go. But that is past, I now have a huge summary to work with, and to give to any doctor to show results on and what is realy going on, rather then lack on information wise. I am also not one to hop to asking around, this only proves that the information about these drugs at hand are questionable and varies per doctor. (Not sure how detailed fact's vary other then doctors adding thier on findings to them since all people are going to react different for further referance) and hopping to another med since a "different" doctor suggest's it without keeping any type of tracking system from prev to new meds, will only get this to being more of an issue. I do not see the reason to fear, on spending about 15mins of your time a night takeing a log on the day to keep track of health patterns, This informaton will only help you further in the long run.
Hmm most drugs are tested using cold hard science, in laboratories, unfortunately on animals, using double blind quantitative methods, the so called 'gold standard' of experimentation. Medical drugs have to go through many such trials before they are approved for use on human beings. What you are doing is using non-scientific methods to test the effects of omitting a drug that has been prescribed to one of your relatives for a specific or general condition. How can you possibly know what the real effects of stopping that drug are. How can you possibly know how stopping a medication is affecting someones kidneys or liver, or heart for example, without the relevant blood tests and scans to see inside the body? What I am trying to get at here is that there is a reason Doctors are allowed to prescribe medication, and it's not just about knowing what a medication is and what it does. In a Doctors case, it's more about knowing how to medically assess a patient and determine what exactly is wrong with them. This is something you cannot do unless you have been medically trained to ask the right questions, perform a methodical assessment, palpation, percussion and asculation, not to mention being able to adequately interpret the results of any scans, or blood tests (or even knowing which scans or blood tests to order up in the first place in order to solve the puzzle of what exactly is wrong with someone and what is causing it). Becuase you are not a Doctor you are also not legally allowed to interfere with your grandpas medication, so you really need to stop and go and seek the advice of a qualified physician, before you potentially get your self into trouble and your grandpa sick. I fail to see how you can't simply speak to your grandpa's Doctor or another Doctor about the medication he is on, and ask for a review of his medication. Can you tell me what medications he is on and which ones you have stopped?
This needs to be explained on for your part. How can a vague amount of information, be More accurate then a written log that in this case is kept up twice daily? It would be useless to run off to find another doctors "Opinion" to scewer the entire problem all together, cause now there will be "Two" sets of facts contradicting each other. If you look at any medication, It will run down a list which will include "Possible" Effects of the drug. Why possible ? Because no one can determine if these effects happen to every individual.. The Medication documents can be obtained and should be obtained by pharmacists or your doctor's office instead of just handing in a slip and getting the drug in the paper bag not ever wondering what the effects could be. What do you think, the side effects are nonsense that disapears just because a doctor gives them to you ? I am not a doctor correct, Neither is my grandfather. However He agree's with me entirely on this and The doctor is not legally allowed to force any medication at specific times on him. There is no legal binding for him to a doctor, He has Choice, he is not a slave. There is nothing legal the doctor has other then if we decided the multitude of problems that my grandfather now has is result of this doctors neglagience. But none of that is the case. You have something against Facts and logging and if you want you can tell me why comeing to a doctor with vague information is much better then a sheet logging all information? Also you are trying to assume the doctor is kept in the dark, why ? What do i have to fear from a fact sheet to give ? Hell I can write a five page overview alone with the information that is now obtained. Facts are as stand: Before We actually looked into this symptoms where grossly out of hand. And there was no information to actually gauge why. The doctor failed to have that, other then saying take this pill as well. (Which failed) Issues where: (Finally can say where =D ) Lethargic, Constitant need to sleep dureing the day. Was increaseing looseing ability to get up and move about. This was transgressing visibly for a month and a half. Skin was turning pale. Constant Aches and Pains throughout. Increaseing In ability to lift anything past a certain point. This was dureing the day. Dureing the night was Lack of sleep, haveing to forcibly Get up to walk off various cramps, this was logged as 5-6 Times a given night. Variouse Sleep Problems resulted. Doctor had zero information or stance on ability to remedy this, Other then giveing Another Pill, and Keeping up a subscription of higher pain killers for the nights. Our stance to remedy this. Firstly Needing Real time information on Blood Pressure results, This clearly was not in any doctor's log nor did they have any ability to do so, There is no need to visit the office daily ... Doctors are not mystical Magical Beings. The subsequent readings where low, Hence his inability to actually lift a glass up. As well Got Actual Information on the meds and reviewed them Did more research to find what all information was out there. (Restricting yourself to a set amount is bad) We then determined Med B., and Med A. where rated a bit differently Doctor had also said he went on a degree of opinions and responses he had on the medication. So if Information was not true, Then X.Y.Z problems clearly would not be effected by the change. Switched these two medications out for a three day period. With subsequent logging. Result: Blood Pressure: Which was the issue: Stabilized out dureing the nights meanwhile the lethargic tendancies lessened dureing the day. With this as prominent showing for the first three, the change up remained for another two. This lead to More activity dureing the day time, instead of consistantly not being able to do much, was now able to work around the house and outside. Which he was doing before this mess. Blood pressure: now with several day log and many readings. We saw the diastolic reading lower then it should have been 50's sometimes as high as 60's. This lead to change #2 The removal of Med A. from being taken: and where we are at currently Remaining of pale complextion gone, Strenght has increased. Diastolic Numbers are now high 60's and breaching 70's. Sleepless nights that was once 5-6 times to get up, going down to 3-4 with just the switch, is now down to 1 interruption a night. Cramping in joints and Pains have receeded considerably. Clearly has the ability to drive again and work at the things around the yard and house that has been wanting to get to. Before I left today he was fixing the garage up. We worked on a new Log Sheet that all pages are printed out for the month that will clearly show at a glance the systoms per morning and night and Blood pressure events. Went from not knowing a god dam thing, to knowing what is going on. and the benefits of this, is much better then ever can be. If the doctor is holding back and purposefully keeping information so no can have, contradicting this.. Then I will have the legal right to pursue that and get the information that purposefully held from the patient. But to note, this is not something that i will "Play" Ideaology with. About doctors magically knowing everything and to watch someone wade away to death before me. Because that was what was happening before and he quit work do to it.
Money is near meaningless to me, Sueing a doctor does not bring him back, nor helps anything. When he dies, (everyone does unless you believe in a magical cure to live forever) at least he will be able to enjoy his time, and actually sleep and do things. Rather then stuck in a chair watching everything you could once do be a past event and remaining to have pains, cramps and restless sleep. What a wonderful life that would be ~ P.S. To add on, and since the doctor agrees with the change, are you suggesting that the doctor is now immediatly wrong and we should ditch him and only go by past doctor setups ?
Food for thought, One drug: Zorcor http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=19766&name=zocor How many patients do you ignore, just to claim ignorance? Well the lawyers couldn't handle all the cases against this drug, and came out with statement and some firms rejecting case suits. Statement included: I will now take greater consideration on how these drugs where introduced in the market rather then a figment of someones imagination that they actually passed some tests to be rendered "safe".
Is your grandpa on any anti-coagulants, anti-platelets, or any other kind of cardiac or heart medication, either for a fast or irregular heart beat, high blood pressure or heart failure? If so plz plz do NOT mess with ANY of these medications without speaking to a Doctor or Pharmascist first. Im trying not to judge you but you are starting to come across as being irresponsible to a fault. Im sure you don't give two hoots about what anyone on this forum thinks, but remeber this, you and you alone have to live with the things you do in life, and I'd really hate to see you have to live with the consequences should your grandpa take ill due to his medication having been stopped. Cardiovascular disease (of which uncontrolled high cholesterol is a major cause) can be a silent and speedy killer. And as for statins, there are more scientists, web pages, pharmacists, people, doctors etc etc etc praising them than critisizing them. Fact is they save lives, no one ever said they were without side effects, or that they should automatically be for everyone with high cholesterol, but they do save lives and if you cant see that then maybe you aren't reading the balanced argument, only what you want to see.
Is your grandpa on any anti-coagulants, anti-platelets, or any other kind of cardiac or heart medication, either for a fast or irregular heart beat, high blood pressure or heart failure? No To all, Excludeing High blood pressure. Hence why the Logging. Machine use was verified by doctors office. Due to it was an older machine and wanted to ensure that it was still functioning correctly. Im trying not to judge you but you are starting to come across as being irresponsible to a fault. Im sure you don't give two hoots about what anyone on this forum thinks, This was more or less for a debate, but this came into people "assumeing other things" style thread which is very disheartening, It was not intended for I think your grandfather has "this" issue. I have been very quite clear about the case. However that is not the key now, After a bit of research and finding out why things like zorcor is allowed to stay on the market and such cases against Companies such as "Merck & Co., Inc" Im finding it more that its "YOUR" Responsibility and not the doctors for you to research and understand what you are takeing by law. If I am being irresponsible, by: *Setting up a daily Multiple log post of: - Blood Pressure - Cramping Index - Pain Index - Other symptoms that may come about - pill Usage Meanwhile Research and statistics on what is being taken. Generateing a controlled atmosphere on what is being taken and Exactly Why. If you think this is irresponsible, then I highly suggest looking for some help in regards of understanding what responsibility is. If takeing a log, and haveing verified accounts of your health problems and symptoms you will better isolate what your problem is, You can better verify when the cases occurred and show off the amount of consistancy they do occurr. This was the discussion. Zorcor is a prime example of what is going wrong with Medications in the market. Its primary name is Simvastatin. You can have fun researching why the name change. The relative I have had before that had taken "Zorcor" Was my father after a Heart attack, Several years ago. He took this drug for 2 weeks. He experienced non stop pains and aches and consistant slow down after takeing it. But obviously being younger, and since this was the only added pill that he was takeing at the time, he isolated it quickly and stopped takeing it. Zorcor was given so his Cholesterol would be handled. and that he would not be clogging up his heart for another attack. The side effects would have killed him and if kept on this drug, he would be in 100% worse shape then he is now. Especially since he takes zero Pills today and has no health problems and his Cholesterol is good condition. Which at the moment you are saying is impossible. I am willing to discuss the topic on this with no problems, Being about Pills and research into lawsuits and why certain medications are not doing as they are prescribed to do, and yet remain on the market even though the company lost thier foot on the case. or About what good logging would do with trying to figure out your health problems and understand more on whats realy going on with you, Versus trying to remember it in one sitting thats normally less then 20mins. As far as my grandfather is concerned in this discussion, The Logging was done and presented. The doctors office agrees, I agree and My grandfather Agrees and the positive results are verified fact. I am not going to post further information on him here for there is no point, And any different claims comeing in would not be from any medical person with knowledge of all facts regarding him to dispute 100% of who is working with him. To put it bluntly, Everyone for his situation, includeing the doctors offices agrees that you are wrong. It was probably my fault useing him as an example originally, will take note on that and ensure not to make the same mistake again, assumptions tend to run a little to wild in which derails the topic/discussion presented. Hence my fault in the start of the discussion.
First off, Im sorry to hear about what happened to your dad. 'Which at the moment you are saying is impossible.' Erm please cut and paste from my post, exactly where I said anything was impossible as I seem to be unable to see anything to that effect in any of my posts. 'To put it bluntly, Everyone for his situation, includeing the doctors offices agrees that you are wrong.' I am wrong about what exactly, my opinion? I don't recall saying anything that would require me to be either right or wrong. I expressed concern, if you think that is wrong then so be it. If you or your Grandpas Doctor agrees with what you are doing or the results of your 'research' then so be it twice over, I am just happy that a Doctor of some kind or some other medically trained individual was consulted in all of this. Unfortunately for me, I'd be struck off the register if I was to do as you have done with your grandpa. '*Setting up a daily Multiple log post of: - Blood Pressure - Cramping Index - Pain Index - Other symptoms that may come about - pill Usage' Oh wait you forgot, respiration rate, sats (peripheral tissue oxygenation), heart rate, temperature and loc (level of conciousness) - those being the most basic of observations to note when observing how a patient is responding to treatment or the lack of it. I'd add in U+E's (urea and electrolytes), FBC's (full blood count), and LFT's (liver function tests), if you really wanted to get the full picture of how a patient is responding to treatment or the lack of it, but unless you actually work in a hospital, or Doctors Practice, I'd be suprised if you'd even managed the TPR (temp, pulse and respiration) bit, let alone the bloods. /sigh You ever heard the saying 'A little bit of information is a dangerous thing'? You must have, right? Hmm actually don't bother to reply to this post, I'm done with this thread. Good luck with your research. I hope all goes well. I do genuinely mean that.
Unfortunately for me, I'd be struck off the register if I was to do as you have done with your grandpa. If this is in reference to a comparison of a hospital Setting situation. I hope the individual was fired if they only took that little amount of data. Hospitals are equipped with any type of machine the human mind could fathom in recording most amount of information in a routine manner safely. Why ? Cause the data obtained gets rid of the "guess work" or as many "What ifs" as possible. You ever heard the saying 'A little bit of information is a dangerous thing'? You must have, right? Yes, Funny Enough. Big corporations in the US are takeing this stance towards Individuals comeing straight out of college. Why? Because the majority do what this Quote implies. They Have a piece of paper, so they stop researching and studieng once outside of schooling. Due to the fact that for some reason people Associated the only way to learn, is to be in a specific area. However Other Countries are not this foolish and that is why they are excelling overall in education, AKA. India, Japan etc. Just because you are not in a school setting, Means you stop inquireing into the research material for your trade. Oh wait you forgot, respiration rate, sats (peripheral tissue oxygenation), heart rate, temperature and loc (level of conciousness) - those being the most basic of observations to note when observing how a patient is responding to treatment or the lack of it. I'd add in U+E's (urea and electrolytes), FBC's (full blood count), and LFT's (liver function tests), if you really wanted to get the full picture of how a patient is responding to treatment or the lack of it, but unless you actually work in a hospital, or Doctors Practice, I'd be suprised if you'd even managed the TPR (temp, pulse and respiration) bit, let alone the bloods. Would be nice if they actually utilized all this before putting these pills on the market, to be able to atleast more accurately judge on what all possible things could happen with them... But we still have to work with Written down information of the subjects tested. Though however do agree why they are not used on a monetary level, Not long ago there was complaints by doctors about the funding for tests not being accurately displayed and by what sources. From what I've learned there is some medications that, have worked generally well for some individuals but have also had very bad effects for others. And these style medications should have enforcements for doctors upon use, makeing sure all conditions that the pill affects "should" be seen are so and recorded. Even if it requires the doctor to enforce a 2 week trial period on the medication with actual sample testing involved. Rather then just giveing it out and saying "Take this daily". Never the less, to add: sorry for the rampage, its just digging into Medical Books and along with Law regarding particular drugs had pissed me off on the clear corners they cut with some. ~
Actually natural Is the things I take personally for me, unless I Just cannot fathom what my problem is. Been meaning to to look much more into that end later down the line. Luckily have a few places that are just pure natural products. Also have ordered Colloidal silver to keep stocked, seems thats a bit harder to find around here.
I'd rather ignore doctors, it seems that you are either dying or healing. It's peoples choice to deal with their situation and it takes hope.
