I probably should have caveatted my comment with: Sometimes war is required, not always, and not all war is legitimate. I was in a hurry too. I'd say soldiering is done by average people. Are average people of low intelligence? They don't write profound poetry or talk of the deeper meaning of this or that? So what? It doesn't mean they are stupid or a bunch of idiots (or the more reasonable "low intelligence")...who don't understand their roles out there. It is true, a lot of the lads and lasses are not interested in the finer details of the politics...this doesn't make them idiots either. I can't say any of the people that have died (therefore we have had a glimpse of their life) they come across as insensitive or of low inteligence. Ofcourse and I agree. I've said what I have said about that. I won't say anything more about it.
yeah.that's the thing to do.even after a person is drafted there are things a person can do to get out of it.that's really what i wish i had done.alot of the draftees became medics.i was in for 36 months.where as if you were drafted you could get out of the army after 17 months after being in nam.but hey i came back from overseas and spent almost two years at ft. knox,ky...iduring that time i had two months tdy at the reserve base at the pittsburgh airport.i got into town alot.pittsburgh is a great town.3 rivers stadium was still there i saw a pirates game there.i got to see clemente play.long time ago 1970....lots of travelling.fun,travel and adventure...fta...fuck the army.
That is somewhat less extreme. Compare that to the wording of the UN Charter: "We the peoples of the United Nations determined: to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind... "And for these ends: to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest..." War is described as a "scourge", with peace the principle objective of civilised people. Is the UN Charter an "extreme"? Yes, these people are unlikely to write poetry, which was my point from earlier. Good poetry is not written by average people, or people who are "middle of the road".
If that was the only thing they said, then yes. But they end that with: "...save in the common interest..." Which seems a diplomatic way of saying: "We can never really rule it out." ...they seem to prefer to refer military action as: peacekeeping, peace enforcement, and peace building. I was talking about soldiers inteligence in general. Regardless of their capacity to write poetry.
war is no good.baseball though .too bad it's so damn expensive to see a game now.a person almost has to take out a loan just to go watch a game.i wonder if it's like that in england too.i suppose cricket is popular there.clubs play it in the states too.i watched a game at a park here a couple years ago.very interesting game.the reason i bring it up is.i imagine the british army introduced cricket to india and such much like it was the american gis that introduced baseball to japan.
Who are you asking ?? I for one was already accepted to a college when I got drafted right of high school. The way things looked back in 1970 I thought the war was going to go on forever, so why waste my time getting a derferment finshing college and having to go anyway. No not everybody that got drafted was of low inteligence, just me.. Peace
The two military men in this thread. Because of comments made by lithium and McLeodGanja. I understand "inteligence" can mean many things...it doesn't always mean you can do maths or are any good at science.
Yes, that is what makes it the mainstream position that it is, not an extreme position of pacifism. Yet they refer to war as a scourge, and peace as the ultimate objective. Warfare is only valid if used as a last resort, in the common interest, and to prevent further destruction. You characterised my position as "an extreme" while I would agree with the wording of the UN charter. Do you still think the suggestion that there is nothing to celebrate about war, and finding war a reprehensible scourge, is an extreme position? Plainly there will be a range of abilities represented in the armed forces, from some highly skilled and technical jobs and a requirement for high level managerial flexibility at the top end, to practically unskilled or semi-skilled labouring. As with most workforces, the vast majority of squaddies will be, generally speaking, the latter type. It's probably not fair to think of front line soldiers as unskilled labourers, but perhaps as well trained tradesmen able to operate their machinery effectively and follow simple orders well. This does not require much in the way of general intelligence and can be done by people with significantly lower than average IQ, though almost by definition the low level positions will be filled by people hovering somewhere just beneath average. Low ranks in the armed forces are poorly paid and will be attractive only to people of concomitantly low abilities and prospects. Again, generalising to the point where you will probably quote me out of context in a few pages time... A separate but related issue is the kind of personality type attracted to a job at a low rank in the armed forces. Introspection and intraversion will not be particularly well represented, because of the self-selection of voluntary application and the process of selection in recruitment, the typical soldier will be somebody who acts first and thinks later, is not averse to risks, and likely to be fairly stable and uncomplicated people, not sensitive, thinking people. Personality factors like this do not correlate directly with general inelligence.
benny hill was great.he was able to to all that lewd humor with all those big jugs bounceing around.that was a good show....i'm not much in the intelligence category myself.i'm kind of duh..........
Well I already answered to the best of my ability, but the whole thing seems to be getting to cerebral, plus my time was different, there is no draft anymore.. If you're in the military now it is of your own volition.. some join beacuse they can go to school, and get paid to do so.. Others join out some sense of patriotism.. Again I didn't join, I was forced to go.. As for inteligence thats all relative.. Define inteligence.. You might be smarter than me at some things, I might be able to outperform you at others.. Peace
Indeed, and there isn't necessarily a value judgement here. We are talking about ranges of abilities and personality types. People who are good at some things tend to be good a range of related things. Extraversion and decisiveness are valuable in some situations, intraversion and contemplation are valuable in others. People who are good at poetry are not generally good at participating in killing people and I would suggest would be practically incapable of celebrating war in the circumstances where they become involved in it. This is why the kind of thing matthew is looking for probably does not exist.
I didn't say the UNs position was extreme, you asked me if it was and I pretty much said not really. Neither did I say that to not celebrate war is an extreme position. I've never said I personally think there is anything to celebrate or glorify about war. Like you, I have said things that with hindsight needed further explanation. But if you still think I think there is anything to celebrate or glorify about war, then you'll be mistaken. With your further clarity I can take back the thought of thinking your position, regarding the use of "reprehensible", was extreme. I do still think when you engage in your less than reasonable comments (e.g where you said I took something out of context), they do seem a little extreme...it is just a feeling I have, perhaps an irrational feeling (so doesn't need explaining at lengh .) Generally speaking I can agree war is a scourge on our world. No I won't. You made your point well. To be honest, it was the comment that people joined the army because they were idiots or lets say less than intelligent people. If that didn't imply something, I don't know what does. The problem I have with that is that soldiers who write very good poetry about a war they may see as illegitimate or a waste of time, with hindsight, still have probably killed people and were very good at it. It is true, if you are going to right a pacifist poem after you have fought, then it is reasonable to suggest these are not the types of people that are not going to write about the glory of war or celebrate it and probably had big issues with war and killing people in the first place. If there are soldiers like that now, then I wonder why they joined up in the first place. Thanks for your clarity. I know longer thing your position on that matter is extreme. When you're more succinct nothing you say seems extreme. It is only when you say things that you say I take out of context, do I think you are extreme. Aside from "not sensitive, thinking people", I agree.
Do you see where the misunderstanding might have come from? Not from a single flippant comment which you later explained but from every single post where you've tried to explain what it is you're looking for... as an example of what you wanted to see you posted a dreadful and unsubtle poem of small-minded political jingoism, describing protestors as traitors and soldiers as heroes. If you genuinely don't believe there is anything to celebrate or glorify about war, why are you continually asking for poems which celebrate and glorify war? Yes I do, generally speaking, think that people who join the army are idiots. This does not mean they are technically idiots in the sense of clinical mental retardation. This is just a subjective value judgment of mine. I think they are idiots because they are volunteering to participate in something reprehensible. I am not a pacifist and think that on some occasions the use of force in line with international law might be the least bad option available, so there is a contradiction in my value judgement: my position requires that some people are prepared to participate in war in those rare and unfortunate situations. But I seriously doubt most people who join the army do so with the attitude that it is an onerous and unfortunate necessity that they have to train to do their job, while hoping they never have to use those skills. That is unlikely to be their mindset: it might be the best option open to them, they may have limited prospects, and the army has very low standards. I doubt most people who join the army have much idea about international law or even think very much about how their actions, should they go to war, would impact on either themselves or other people. When those people do go to war, some of them probably do think for the first time about what they are actually doing, and if they are thoughtful people, it profoundly shocks and disturbs them: the anti-war soldier poet phenomenon. This is probably a minority though, because people who want to join the army are idiots...
I'm not though am I? Not really. It is quite telling you have not quoted anything I have said to prove this point. So I am going to assume it is just you wishing for me to be thinking that way, not me actually being that way. No sane person is going to go back and check...but I have said time and time again that isn't the type of poem I was looking for. So, imo, you are wrong...very very wrong. I AM insane so I will : In Order: http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=5785239&postcount=30 http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=5789605&postcount=50 You get the idea. As for the poem I submitted: Here we stand, On the wet land As we train, In the rain As we fight, For the right For others to be free, As the protestors decree To have us stop, To have us drop Our defense, And hence From Iraq, And back To our home, To let the enemy roam And corrupt, And abrupt The good change, And make things strange For all are young, That will be among The new times, Which bring new crimes To me this part talks about working hard to stop "The Enemy" ruining Iraqi lives...that is a positive message and not one usually seen in recent war poems. I like this part and IS what I was looking for. That all the old have yet to see, For all we hope they wont flee And be scared to fight, For the right To keep the united states, That carries the traits Of the people from all around, that are buried in the ground That fought for our rights, and brought us new sights You are right about this bit. As the protestors hide, and stand beside Us in times of peace, which decrease The extra trouble, that they would usually double In the time of distress, that cause less progress I hope you see, that you the protestors flee As we may still fight, for everyone's right Til the time comes, and we have all the sums That make the enemy surrender, and then our defender Will come home to their kin, and talk about the win That is taught in the history, in which holds the mystery Of why people support, and how the soldiers report Day after day, as they portray To protect, and should be shown respect For all they have done, til the protest is none. You say this part is treating protestors like traitors...mmm, perhaps. I guess I read it as some protestors only protest when it suites them and are sometimes hypocrites. Perhaps something to explore? So, I didn't completely take your comment out of context then. It isn't upto them to know about International law...how many civilians know about International law? You keep inferring war should disturb soldiers...and I am positive it does. But they CAN also get a positive experience from it as well, this is all I am saying. Helping people out of tyranny. Building better environments. Helping engender equality Etc Etc Etc If you see this as glorifying war...then I think that is a bizarre way of looking at things, to be honest.
Geeez you just posted a video, with a big sweaty fat guy, guess he was singing in german ?? There were a bunch of naked men in it too.. I don't like naked men.. Oh well takes all kinds to make the world to make the world go round. Peace
