They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old; Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them. LEST WE FORGET
I'm wearing a white poppy this year, like every other year. It's sad and hypocritical to see politicians wearing their red poppies in parliament whilst taking us to war. Flanders Fields is a pleasant, wistful poem, but ultimately patriotic, and that was the tragedy of the war. "Take up our quarrel with the foe To you from failing hands we throw The torch; be yours to hold it high." This is the ultimate fallacy of the poem, advocating not peace from tragedy, but further bloodshed, and the message that I wholly disagree with. Here's one that really captures my heart, and brings a tear to the eye... The Parable of the Old Man and the Young So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went, And took the fire with him, and a knife. And as they sojourned both of them together, Issac, the first-born spake and said, My Father,Behold the preparations, the fire and iron, But where the lamb for this burnt offering? Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps, And builded parapets and trenches there. And stretched forth the knife to slay his son. When lo! an angel called him out of heaven, Saying, Lay not a hand upon the lad, Neither do anything to him. Behold,A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns; Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him. But the old man would not do so, but slew his son, And half the seed of Europe, one by one. -- Wilfred Owen
I learnt this Wilfred Owen Poem at School: Dulce Et Decorum Est Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs And towards our distant rest began to trudge. Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots Of disappointed shells that dropped behind. GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling, Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time; But someone still was yelling out and stumbling And floundering like a man in fire or lime.-- Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light As under a green sea, I saw him drowning. In all my dreams, before my helpless sight, He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning. If in some smothering dreams you too could pace Behind the wagon that we flung him in, And watch the white eyes writhing in his face, His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin; If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,-- My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori. Translated from Latin "Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori." means "It is sweet and becoming to die for one's country." Just as much a tired old lie now as it was back then
good point sal, after actualy reading the poem *i just pased it in) the last verse made me angry so i took it down.
Wilfred Owen is one of my favourite poets. We studied him back at school too actually. 'The Parable of the Old Man and the Young' has to be one of my favourites by him, I seem to recall memorising it all and quoting it in the exam I loved it so much. Dulce et Decorum Est is also an amazing poem. His poetry is so powerful, graphic, and chilling....
I don't support rememberance day as although the first and second world wars were both just wars our side committed numerous atrocities. Often to our own people such as the sending of troops into battle zones without proper gas masks in the first world war which led to tens of thousands suffering agonising deaths from gas attacks. The shooting for cowardice of thousands of our own troops who were often very young and inexpierenced and who were not really cowards at all but had either taking part in tactical retreats or else had been so overwhelmed by the ferocirty of battle they were unable to continue. Then there were all the atrocities we committed during World War II such as th fire bombing of German and Japanese cities. The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The using of German prisoners of war to clear mine fields which resulted in thousands of them dying. The abuse and looting from German civilians after the war and the failing to stop ethnic cleanising of ethnic Germans in eastern Europe after the war which resulted in some 14 million ethnic Germans in eastern Europe being made refugees. Then there was the forced returning of Russian prisoners of war to Russia many of whom were executed or sent to slave labour camps for the "crime" of surrendering. Then there was the failure of the allies to stop the Japanese massacre at Nanking just before the war in 1937 in which at least 200,000 Chinese civilians were butchered to death while the allies stood by and did nothing even though there was an allied base not far away.
War is always and can never be anything but a tragedy for all involved. There is no such thing as a just, moral, righteous or glorious war. I refuse to wear a poppy because of the association of this symbol with the establishment which is responsible for all the killing. If Tony Blair can wear a poppy and lay a wreath at the cenotaph while simultaneously being the cause of so much death and suffering in the middle east, I will have nothing to do with this empty symbolism. I will remember those killed, on all sides, in the wars started by the likes of Tony Blair, Saddam Hussein, and a long line of warmongers and criminals stretching back through history before them. I will remember the victims of war in my own way.
i make a point of buying my poppy from the old guys selling them in town. it is my own personal way of saying thank you to them for risking their lives for our freedom. we live in a (relatively) free country because of them, so what ever your views on war, surely everyone must agree that these guys deserve our gratitude. so i will be wearing my poppy not as a political statement but as a way of saying thank you. peace and love stardust xxx
We don't even have conscription any more. OK the guys in the First & Second World Wars didn't really have much of a choice but nowadays nobody HAS to go to war. No soldiers would be dying in Iraq at the moment if they'd refused to join
Yeah they would, they would bring in compulsory military service. Nation states are defined by their ability to use violence, they couldn't not have an army, not within their current ways of operating....
No they wouldn't. But if they had not gone to war in Iraq then Saddams' vile regime would still be in power killing, imprisoning and horrifically torturing political prisoners! It would also still be trying to get hold of nuclear weapons and one day eventually would. The discovery of weapons of mass destruction programmes in Iraq after the war proved Iraq was desperatly trying to circumvent UN sanctions to produce WMD. The war was neccessary both to free the Iraqi people and bring them democracy and for global security to counter the threat posed by rogue tyrants like Saddam Hussein. And don't say the west did nothing to help the people of Iraq before the war, it did, it imposed no fly zones in northern and southern Iraq to protect The Kurds and the Marsh Arabs from 1991 onwards. This gave the Kurds in the north virtualy autonomy from Saddams' regime and allowed democracy and free speech to thrive in Iraqi Kurdistan.
I was trying to explain in simple terms why Saddams' regime had to be removed! It is not trolling it is education!
It's taking yet another thread round to your own agenda. Nothing about the traditional armistice day events
i know it doesn't require it, but i still think it's nice for the older generation to look at a young person wearing a poppy and thinking we might be thankful. if we didnt wear it then they wouldnt have a clue if we gave a shit or not. peace and love stardust xxx
The poppy is for remembering.... as in 'shit man, we best not do this again'. It is not for condoning war in any way. It's unfortunate some people believe the later. This has come about because of the routine element to the poppy wearing and rememberance day. i wonder how many people go through the motions without thinking about how atrocious war is.... maybe the kind of idiots that would invade iraq?... i wear a poppy and think about the fields with dead bodies tilled in by shells for the poppy to grow in abundance. its like.... the POINT of wearing it. with a nod to points made earlier. i can see how despondence can grow from the red poppy being such an empty gesture now politicians that condone slaughter are wearing them. i think i'll investigate this white poppy idea... ~
