Are we gonna lose? What will be the cost?

Last Update: Tuesday, November 2, 2004. 7:49am (AEDT)

Bin Laden vows to bankrupt US

Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden has vowed to wage a war of "attrition" against the United States until it is "bankrupt," in a message to the American people posted on the Al Jazeera website."

"We became experts in gang warfare and in the war of attrition," says bin Laden in the new excerpts, published on the eve of the US presidential election.

"We fought the unjust superpower, waging [a war of] attrition, along with the [Afghan] mujahedeen, [against] Russia for 10 years until they became bankrupt and decided to withdraw in defeat," he says, referring to the fight against Soviet occupation forces in Afghanistan in the 1980s."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200411/s1232600.htm

There is more on it in the article, and you can do a google news search on the topic.

Question is, should this be or is this a major concern for us regarding this war? This is pretty realistic. It's no lie that Russia was pretty much bankrupt by their occupation of Afghanistan, and they were a superpower of the time, now look at them.
(Can read about the war here: http://wais.stanford.edu/History/history_ussrandreagan.htm )


So I'm pretty well convinced that we have got ourselves into a mess in Iraq, but have we given Al-Qaida just what they want?

I don't see how we can win the way we are doing things, are we going to lose and will we lose big time? Will history repeat itself? Thoughts?

 

Perhaps when America finally does go bankrupt, and loses it's 'superpower' status, and then with no more remaining superpowers, the UN would probably declare itself the single 'superpower' of the world. I don't buy into all that conspiracy crap about a 'one-world government police state' bullshit, although I do think there is a little truth in everything, so I don't discount the possibility. But, if the UN does become the sole superpower, I see our world headed in the direction of Aldous Huxley's 'Brave New World'.

Huxley and Orwell once had a correspondence, and they jokingly asked each other "Which do you think will come first, Brave New World or 1984?" I asked my room mate that question, and he replied "I think they are both the same. Huxley just saw the world with much less fear than Orwell." On the topic of Huxley, he's such an amazing writer, I'm reading Island right now. I reccomend any of his books to everyone.

 

I think this is VERY realistic, our 'conservative' (ha ha) president is spending 1 Billion dollars a week on our wars and I am pretty sure 9/11 was the single greatest blow to our economy EVER.

New world order? I understand the fear, and we need to keep it, else we will have a new world order. BUt, on the other hand most europeans are far freer than us, despite the larger governments.
Does England have a patriot act? HELL NO! They would never go for that.
Their cops don't even usually carry firearms.
The right to liberty is still gauranteed in most of Europe - mostly because they have had more practice at governance and don't allow fear and moral based extremist highjack their systems. Ah to be in the post-christian era like the rest of the world....

 

this is europe we are talking about? Excuse me... HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

ok, sorry

Yes, we need to figure out how to get our economy back in order and our deficit fixed..we need to get others involved in iraq, even at the cost of contracts so we dont go bankrupt fighting wars...

 

I suspect youve never spent any time abroad Megara. Europe indeed has greater respect for international conventions on human rights than does Washington and most certainly so under the control of the neocons and their visions of unilateralist manifest destiny.

Or perhaps you think we are hosting thousands in Gunatanemo with pina coladas and afternoon massage therapy.

 

How your post at all relates to what i said is beyond me.

I've traveled extensively in europe and asia, thanks.

 

Then what is so funny? They do respect human inalienable rights above all others. I think it is a pretty good guess that you are lying about your international travels if you don't realize this.

 

the idea that europeans are not susceptible to fear and 'moral based extremism' is flat out laughable.

 

I NEVER said OR implied that. Look at Hilter. Is that the example you want to use to show me how well these types of policies work?
In Europe a police officer can not search you without VERY plausible evidence of broken laws. Here you can be searched anytime a cop pulls you over or engages in conversation with you. In Europe it is illegal to wire tap or otherwise snoop on a person who has not engaged in illegal activity. Here it is becomming common place to snoop on whomever the government chooses.
Each year civil liberties are expanded in most euopean countries. Here, every year, they are more limited.
Just a course we should be aware of, nothing more. All people are subject to fear mongering. We are just giving up the fight.

 

The fact is Megara, unlike our ever increasingly dumbed down education system, Europeans are taught history and the context of world events (along with multiple languages) and have access to much broader and diverse cultural and informational resources as compared with the sanitised, insulated drivel and hyper-ideological BS that passes for informed debate back home.

Europeans have learned the lessons of history. Thus they have a far greater respect international conventions and constructive engagement over knee jerk, reactionistic militant impositions such as we have demonstrated to the world every decade (and often more than once in a decade). And we see it yet again since 2001 with the ascendancy of fundamentalist right wing Christofascists. Now that they have secured two out three branches of the government (with the Supreme Court to follow shortly) their extremist antiConstitutional agenda will have no effective opposition.

If you ever travelled as you claim, no doubt it was nothing more than tourism. Try living abroad and opening yourself to the international crossroads of thoughts and ideas. Back home, people are kept largely ignorant of what Washington is truly up to outside our shores and the actual reasons for and effects of those actions.

I find it frighteningly ironic that our fundamentalist hardliners point to their ideological counterparts in the Islamic world and spit similar threats of destruction whilst arguing the need to support liberal elements within those societies, yet at home we advocates of liberal progressive, accountable, government are villified and (with the advent of the Patriot Act) increasingly under scrutiny and threat. Clearer signs of the repetition of the rise of fascism could not be asked for.

 

Back to the topic of the thread....


Don't you see a big problem here? I see a definite possibility of some major damage if we don't seriously re-evaluate what we are doing. I mean, now that it seems that we are stuck in a trap in Iraq (or maybe some would disagree) what needs to be done? What are we going to do?

I certainly hope it isn't more of the same....

 

The right to liberty is still gauranteed in most of Europe - mostly because they have had more practice at governance and don't allow fear and moral based extremist highjack their systems.

Yeah, its a paradise in places like london where the "ring of steel"/cctv record your every movement. 1984? Nah, europeans dont harm civil rights.

how about the fact that you cant protest outside of westminster? Nah, rights are only curbed when American government decides it is accptable to practice free speech.

you really think that is just becoming common place?

Im ever so curious about these vast civil liberties they are gaining and that we've lost. Can you post information on both please?


here is some interesting reading on EU civil liberties...

http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/liberties/2002/0829eu.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/3751057.stm

i thought this was an interesting excerpt..

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2002/sep/analysis13.htm

"Another "emergency" measure that went through all the legislative stages in weeks was the Framework Decision on the European arrest warrant. This does away with almost all of the checks and balances of the existing extradition procedure. For a list of 32 offences there will now be no legal test in the requested state. The requesting state simply has to say that a person is wanted for one of the listed offences and this person can be arrested - their homes searched and property seized - and deported to stand trial. There is no habeas corpus, no appeal, no rights for the suspect.(8)"

 

i can see how theres going to be worse than 9/11 and such happening here at any given moment, i worry for whats going to happen in the next four weeks let alone years, and so forth,

hmmm...

 

I fail to see your point. The data storing techniques in your first link are nothing compared to the Carnivore program which chews through 75% - 80% of all internet traffic. The US already stored all telephone records and cell snooping antennaes have been up since the technology was invented. No court orders needed.
As far as "The requesting state simply has to say that a person is wanted for one of the listed offences and this person can be arrested - their homes searched and property seized" this happens HUNDREDS of times a day in America right now, sometimes to innocent people. You don't have to be guilty of a crime to get arrested and have your home and property seized. I have been arrested and had my home searched, but I was not guilty, charges dropped. It was a load of fun.

I never said anything about "vast" civili liberties, so don't try and put words in my mouth. Many elements of the agreement countries sign to enter the EU reinforces personal civil liberties and countries have been changing the way they deal with: non violent offenders, drug users, search and seizure of property, etc. to come into compliance with these agreements.
Meanwhile we have developed stronger laws to allow: almost unrestrained search and seizure under the umbrella of terrorist threat, you can hold people in jail indefinitely without legal consultation OR charges being assessed, and you can be wire tapped, email snooped and cell phoen snatched without a prior court order.

PS: New York has just as many cameras a London.

 

I take it you fail to understand why i laughed at your comments and posted all that.

I am not trying to argue we're more free than them. I just laugh at your belief that they arent losing civil liberties like we are. It is wrong.

 

America may win this war but we will lose the war to come. Russia will join with the Moslems when they get tired of fighting them. Russia did go bankrupt, but much of that came about by them trying to match America's Star Wars program. Of coarse the war in Afghanistan also led the way. Moslems in Russia and around the world will discover they have a common enemy. America, and Israel. Abortion's in Russia is also leading the way there. The White Russian's we are dealing with today are aborting themselves out of existance. Russia leaders are calling this a national tragedy. Moslems on the other hand do not believe in abortion. As a result of this you will have a very religious Moslem population that is armed with nukes in the future. The future of America is recorded in Jer.50 ,51 and Revelation 18. The future of Israel is in Ezk. 37,38,39, and Zec. 12. What is happening in America is the same. There is going to be a very strong voteing block of Christian's which will mold American policy in favor of Israel. This will drive the Moslems crazy, and will create an atmospher of war between the two Faiths. World War III will come, but God will rescue His people just before this happens. Russia will destroy America in one hours time but will have major problem's when they attack Israel. Russia will discover what the Pharaoh found out at the Red Sea Crossing. That the God of the Bible really is God, and is protecting Israel. The Jews will discover the man they put on the cross Jesus Christ, is the God of all creation. Israel will become a Christian nation. And this will be the time the bible describes as the Great Tribulation. I believe we have about 30 years left.

 

Everyone in this thread says "we" and "I" but I feel that if people re-evaulated these terms until they reached a higher realization of what "we" and "I" are, there would be no room for war or conflict.

Thats all i have to say about these foolish matters

 

That is all that need be said, really. We are the world.....indeed.

18 and life to go.......keep it up, you are a wise person in my view, at a young age, don't lose that.

Maybe there is something to this Indigo children thing....

 

You have a very good point here, ever seen the movie Gattica. Thats how I may envision a world in the future if run by a global government. If it comes to that I hope they have "soma."

 

I enjoyed it, and it did echo '1984' in its message.
The one world gov't does have some definite upsides to it. If not corrupt, and run in good conscience, it may be the only way to solve the shameful problem of 50 000 kids a day dying due to lack of basic medicine or food.
Also, it could be the key to saving the environment.
I just hope that it comes about as a result of world popular opinion and agreement, and not due to the powerful establishments desire for control.