a question for christians

this might come across as a criticism, but it's an honest question. i'm looking for an answer, not an argument.

how can you trust god when there's so much pain in the world? and don't tell me "it's all part of his plan" 'cause i've seen what his plan is for some people and it really doesn't seem too loving.

 

if you care about someones suffering, what have you learned?

compassion, where does it come from??

 

that's not my point. my point is, why is there so much suffering in a world going exactly according to god's plan? how could a loving god do some of these things to people?

(i don't deny there's a flipside to the coin by the way)

 

even the dung beetle has a purpose, if there was no dung there would be no beetle. No shit..

 

yeah...that's the same "it's all the way it's supposed to be" thing. just the whole plan, pain, love, omnipotent thing doesn't fit. i dunno, the more i try to apply logic to religion, the less it makes sense. i guess logic and religion don't fit well together.

 

http://frmikesdailythoughts.blogspot.com/2007/07/is-there-any-value-in-suffering.html

This is an interesting article. It says that our suffering brings us closer to God by uniting with the suffering of Christ's Passion.

Do you know why we suffer, because the universe is a natural world and suffering is a part of the natural order. People die, we grieve. We get hurt, we cry. This is just what the world does. Both these things too have a purpose. Pain is a good way to learn good and bad things to do.

 

Faith is the opposite of, and alternative to, logic and reason.

 

I'm not a christian but why should it mean that if god has a plan every bad thing in the world is a direct action of him? Perhaps god let nature take it's own cause the same way he gave free will to us humans.

 

well, I'd say that the Bible tells that God created humans with a free will, which can be used by humans to go away from God and to hurt one another, pursue their own ego's of desire and power etc causing relationship problems, injustice, wars, etc etc. So this is all not according to what God wants, ofcourse he wants us to choose good but he gives us that choice, that freedom.

Ofcourse there can be a 'use' or 'purpose' in suffering, like growing stronger, grwoing in trusting God no matter what, commitment, etc but suffering done by humans is coming basically from their choices not God's.

how does that sound like?

 

dutch:

yeah, but with his omnipotence and omniscience and the notion that he has a "plan for everyone"...why would he allow/cause so much pain in peoples' lives?

 

Hmm well things such as Gods omnipotence, omniscience, and things like eternity etc are beyond the ability of our minds to FULLY grasp. But that's ok for me because I believe there can be many things that are true and not fuly reachable by our minds, and that something doesn't need to be fully reachable in order to be true. Anyway, sorry for the philosophical detour...

I think there are two 'factors' we have to 'work with': on the one hand what the Bible says about God being in control, and at the same time what the Bible says about human responsibility and choice etc. We surely can't full understand how the two always work together, especially when we are confronted with situations of suffering, but when we toss one out I think we end up having a unbalanced view of God, humans and the world.

I also suspect that some preachers emphasize 'God's plan for your life' so much that the aspect of our responsibility (in walking in Gods ways etc) is sometimes missed.

 

The notion that God has an individualized, customized personal plan for each of us, rather than just a general one for mankind, is I think kinda new and very Evangelical Christian. Where is the Biblical support for this idea that's getting so much play among Christian Evangelicals today?

 

Nowhere. Wishful thinking.

 

I'd say there is biblical grounds for saying that, though the way in which it is said and emphasized in evangelical circles is ofcourse heavily influenced by contemporary culture which is very different from pre-modern culture and thought.

Some examples of biblical grounds for God's plan with individuals might be seen in the lives of Abraham (God saying: "through you all nations will be blessed, I will give you a son in your old age"), joseph (joseph saying "my brothers did this to me for evil but God used it for good"), moses (God saying: "I have heard the cries of my people, I send you to tell pharaoh to let my people go"), Esther ("for such a time as this"), Jeremiah ("before you were in the womb I appointed you a prophet to the nations"), psalm 139 of David ("You knitted me together in the womb"). And Jesus saying each of the hairs on our heads are numbered by our Father. And that's also something, Jesus talking about God as a good Father in heaven, teaching everyone to pray to God in that way.

So according to the Bible God has plans for nations as well as for individuals.

 

Those examples do not imply that he has a plan for EVERY individual.

 

Well if you look at the book of acts you see certain individuals of great importance that get a lot of attention, like Paul. But there's a lot of people that are only briefly mentioned. For example, when the believers in Jerusalem where scattered to the surrounding nations because of persecution, they preached the gospel wherever they went, and it was through them that the first non-Jews started following Jesus. And When Paul and Barnabas seperated because of an argument, Barnabas took Silas (the cause of the argument) and sailed to Cyprus. It is not recorded what happened there, but there they preached. But mostly the track of Paul is followed, but a lot of other stuff was going on as well. Paul was clearly hand-picked by God, but so where those others, even though that wasn't recorded in detail.

So I guess I'm trying to say that it doesn't have to say literally in the Bible "God has a personal plan for your life, every individual" in order for this to be so (concluded from the biblical data, keeping in mind cultural difference also difference of expression between the times of the bible and modern evangelicals)

 

The only universal law is "cause and effect". We create our own reality.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, things that Christians call "sin" is nothing more that cause and effect in action. Steal from someone and there will be an equal and opposite reaction. The bible and Christian dogma only explain this scientific principle through metaphors that within the dogma are called sins.

For me it is much easier to look at the world as cause and effect in action. What we do to others we do to ourselves and conversely what we do to our selves we do to others.

If someone's life is lived with complete disregard for this simple rule of cause and effect then the "reactions" will be universal. By this I mean if too many people live their lives

Hating
Stealing
Making War
Killing people
Lying
ETC
ETC
ETC

Then the effect with be felt and experienced on the entire earth, everyone has heard the phrase " does a butterfly wings flapping affect a north Atlantic hurricane?" the answer is yes. I the effect great "no", but add a couple of billions of butterfly's and it would be noticed.

The religious dogma that there is a God who see everything and controls the daily lives here on earth is nothing more than the religious oligarchs method of control, because if you can convince people that there is a man who lives in the clouds who watches everything you do and when you "sin" he gets pissed and punishes you is nothing more than explaining the scientific principle of cause and effect.

We create our own world everyday, love everyone, even it if hard. Use the Christian idiom "do unto others as you would do to yourself". Society does not teach this to the young school children other that to teach it through arcane rules, so most people do not ever learn except though experience.

How could societies get people to go to or support wars if they truly understood this principle. Truth is they could not!

That's my spin on it.

Peace
Dan

 

But how many people were living on earth at that time? Millions, or tens of millions. The folks refered to in Acts, probably a few hundred, represented a tiny fraction of the total population. Nobody else had an "assignment" as far as we know.

People want very much for this to be true. The bible doesn't say it isn't true. So what? It also doesn't say that there isn't an invisible purple dinosaur looking over my shoulder right now, but I doubt if it is there. You are giving me a better example of wishful thinking in theology than I would have come up with myself.

 

I don't believe He wrote all this for us. I believe He created us, knowing what we would be capable of, and knowing what we would do, and because He felt that this life would still be worth living, He put us here, hoping we might at the very least learn something from our trials. What's the alternative? That He "gives" people cancer or "makes" people rapists? I don't think so. I know plenty of people who do believe that and I can't understand them.
Honestly, show me how many people- that aren't clinically depressed- that would rather die than be alive right now? And I'm sure there are some. There is always an exception to the rule. But I think you'll find the will to survive is very strong, and that most people can find at least one thing to live for in this horrible horrible world full of pain and suffering.
You wanna know why people suffer? Because no one helps them. Now, tell me, is that God's fault or ours? Is He supposed to ride down here on a white steed and scoop up all the poor downtrodden people and smite the wicked?
What a fairy tale...

 

A life of random, meaningless events.