Female Genital Cutting

Yes, the muslims who do practice it do try to use the Quran to support this practice. But there are many more muslims who do not practice it. There are some who say there is a reference to it in the Quran, and some say there isn't. Or that there is an Islamic law prohibiting the practice. Which makes since, because the Quran does talk about mutual satisfaction between husband and wife.

I do agree that there is no quick change to this, and there is no way military action, or extreme forms of international interference should be used. Egypt has been working on banning it internally since the mid 90s. There is also a much smaller movement to stop male circumcision in Egypt.

 

I realize that this is a complicated scenario, because in this one particular case this grown woman is saying that she is doing this willingly.

However, in my opinion, a person who wishes to have themselves mutilated may have mental health issues.

And she claims to derive more sexual pleasure without a clitoris? Physical pleasure? Or some sort of masochistic emotional pleasure?

Female genital mutilation is sick and horrible. There are African women who are devoting their lives, and risking their lives, to put an end to it. One of them helped my mom dread her hair. This particular woman dreads and braids hair and has a radio show in the Bay Area. She sends money home to help the cause.

As much as I was raised to be open-minded about other people's cultures, there is nothing that anyone can say to me to make me condone the mutilation of children's, or anyone's, genitals. It's sick.

Has anyone else read Alice Walker's book Possessing the Secret of Joy, about this topic? She is also an activist working to raise awareness and bring an end to FGM.

 

Where do you draw the line? If a man chooses to convert to Judaism, so chooses to be circumcised as a part of that conversion, is he mentally ill? If I, as an aspiring anthropologist, go out into the field someday & choose to undergo a scarification ritual in order to deepen my relationship with the people I am working with, will you suspect that I have mental health issues? How do we make such loaded judgments?

If I recall, the argument was that the excision did not remove all of the nerves, just the clit & labia. Personally, I could probably count on two hands the number of times I have allowed my boyfriend to get near my clit -- it's just too damn sensitive. Instead, I direct him to my g-spot. I doubt that such a procedure (again, this case didn't involve the most extreme form, so the g-spot area would have remained intact) would negatively affect my sexual pleasure -- not that anyone is getting near there with a knife unless there is some cancer to cut out or something! And, again, I do not support this practice, I think all forms of circumcision (male as well) are nasty. But I would like to discuss this topic on a deeper level than "ew, that's bad, lets make laws against it & bring in the military if they don't stop".

Do you know what kinds of efforts she is participating in and/or financially supporting? As a previous poster mentioned, change is only likely to come from inside the culture.

A couple of the articles I read mentioned a woman from Togo, who brought about an "international incident" a few years ago -- her parents had not had her or her sisters circumcised, but when her father died, she went into the custody of her father's brother. This uncle (or rather, aunt, as it was the father's brother's wife) insisted that she be circumcised prior to an arranged marriage. She fled, sought, & was finally granted political assylum in the US. The thing that both authors just brushed over was the fact that the woman's sisters were unaffected because they were married before the father died. One of the major reasons women cite for putting their daughters thru this is because no man will want to marry an uncircumcised woman. However, the fact that those sisters married proves that wrong... I guess I see hope in this, that those sisters will not circumcise their daughters, who will not circumcise their daughters, slowly spreading an aversion to cutting. And, if more women knew that these sisters found good husbands tho they were not circumcised, maybe they would have hope that their daughters will be able to marry well without being circumcised.

Again, just to be clear (especially considering my tendency to play devil's advocate), I'm not suggesting anyone condone it. I just wanted to have a discussion that goes deeper than the knee-jerk reaction & discuss some of the sticky points in the debate, like how you respond to the women defending it.

 

I am so sick of the bullshit excuse "We can't criticise someone else's culture!" WHY NOT! These people are sick. Just because something is "part of someone's culture" doesn't make them right.

Slavery was "part of someone's culture."

Genocide is "part of someone's culture."

"Home Correction" (govermental sanction of wife beating) is "Part of someone's culture."

There are "cultures" who beleive in "Honor Killings" meaning it is OK to kill your daughter or your sister or your wife if you "beleive" she dishonored you. And it is totally legal.

"Cultures" are not immune to Ethical scrutiny. Yes, some cultures are sick. If you do nothing you are part of the problem.

A war will solve NOTHING, IMO, this is naive and silly to think so.

But it is wrong and something should be done. The womyn do it to their dds because it was done to them, and there is probably a great deal of jealousy over the fact that these intact children still have their God Given parts. Taylor is right, if a womyn says she has just as satisfying sex after her clit was removed, she must have had pretty awful sex before.

 

And male circumsicion is NOT a "simple medical procedure."There is NOTHING medically indicated about it, as 2/3 of the skin of the penis is slashed off, usually with NO anesthesia, it is NOT "Simple." It is barbaric, that is the only simple thing about it.

 

I think a society which shreds the genitials of little children is sicl. I don't think it is "unjust." You do something that WRONG, you are sick. Just because they are a "society" doesn't make them immune to scrutiny.

Islam does NOT support this practice. Certain parts of Africa (hmm, the same areas which introduced Slavery to the Dutch in the 1500s, oddly enough, and the same "societies" which STILL use slavery amoung themselves) somehow, when Islam was introduced into these parts of Africa, FGM was incorporated. The middle east does not practice FGM.

 

These women need to be told they ARE being oppressed, the initiater of the oppression is not important, but normal sex and childbearing for them is. I don't think it would be any easier to accept that the oppression is coming from their mothers or from the men of their culture, but it sounds like a cultural fight that needs to be resolved.

 

Fore skin is not dirty and can enhance sex. The cultures who remove skin on women should stop because the women need a normal sex life too.

 

Michael, I really don't think anyone on here is saying fgm is a good thing. But you keep promoting this "war" idea, like going to war is really going to solve this wide-spread, PSYCHOLOGICAL problem. Wars may sometimes solve political problems, but they have NEVER ended (indeed, they only create) psychological problems such as FGM.


You also keep saying its the men that are cutting the women, and I'm telling you (as someone who's been to an FGM practicing country) that it is the WOMEN that do this to other women (as maggie said, probably out of jealousy).

Yes, this practice should be stopped, but there is only so much the west can do. Ultimately, the women of these cultures must be given the resources and education to solve this themselves. The African people are very proud of their culture (and rightfully so, overall) and they will most likely not listen to a westerner. Change must come from within.

-Kate

 

er, I believe there has been quite a bit of evidence that circumcision does affect the sexual life of a man, in reducing sensitivity. Not that it's near so drastic as FGM, but it does affect sensations.

er, sorry, this just sounds odd to my brain. When you cut someone, you put the devil in them? Any cutting or just FGM? What about the survivors (mental survivors, that is) of FGM who do what they can to stop this practice?

 

That's why I said may have mental health issues. The word may in that sentence indicates that in my opinion, if a person wishes to mutilate himself or herself, it is indeed possible that they have mental health issues. I did not say that this is automatically the case under every set of circumstances.

So, FGM may not make each and every woman who has undergone it completely incapable of sexual pleasure. Still, it's sick.

I don't know. I could find out. I know that she had her clitoris removed, against her will, as a child. Other than that, I am not sure of the extent of her own personal mutilation. She uses her radio show in the San Francisco Bay Area to spread awareness about the issue here in the states. As I belive I mentioned, she is from Africa. She is trying to change the practice from within the culture.

 

Just one correction. The word "circumcise" means "To cut around." As in the circular foreskin. It cannot be applied to female genital mimutilation, as it is more "Cutting up everything is sight!" A better word may be PanCise. But Mutilation is the best term. What is done to a womyn is NOT "circumcised."

 

i havent had to time to read everyones comments here.. but i just thought i'd say

i know some people say well.. "its not our culture, its theres, so let them be" but hang on a second here, forget the culture thing, its our right to keep on our genitals thanks- its every single human beings universal right to keep on their body parts.

we were made with our private parts to keep them and use them , not to have them chopped off. female mutilation should be banned and like, made illegal in all parts of the world.

these girls havent even had a chance to masturbate ot have sex orget on wit their lives. most girls who get it done are way too young and i think that they arent even being given a chance yet.

please stop all this from happening.. its ridiculous and has nothing to do with impurity and what not- its our universal rights as people.

and what immost surprised about this, is that the womenwho got it done to themselves, that they dont have any sympathy for the young girls they are commiting sick and painful acts on. how did they fel about this? why are they making everyone else misrable?

the girls need to know about how they "could" be living their lives. a little shot at thinknkig outside the box- they dont have to live like that.

north america, and most probably europe- their cups are "filled" we have the money, we have the time- we should do something about it!

my god i just dont get people sometimes.

WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS.

 

In relation to this, at least some of the resistance to getting rid of the practice can be directly tied to responses to colonial practices. Some political leaders who, in earlier documents showed a willingness to contribute to getting rid of genital cutting, took up the issue as a matter of ethnic identity in response to western attempts to impose western values.

By going in & trying to make people change, we exacerbated the issue, making it a matter of ethnic identity, a symbolic resistance against colonial power. Why should we expect better results if we try to force them to stop (whether by forcing them to legally ban it or by going to war to make them stop) now?

Again, this is not about justifying the practice, it is about realistic means of dealing with it.

 

One of the major reasons given for continuing the practice is that no man will marry an uncircumcised woman. Regardless of what we may think of it, in many places (even for some people in the US, believe it or not) marriage is seen as an economic necessity. Especially in rural areas where you subsist on either farming or herding, without a husband, there is no one (except your father or brother) to do certain tasks that are traditionally assigned to men. In many of these societies, the only women who have any opportunities on their own are the wealthy ones whose family can afford to provide the necessities for a solid education (I don't know if schooling is free or not in all areas, even if it is free, you have to live close enuf to a school & be able to not rely on older children for babysitting & whatnot).

So, from that perspective, the mothers doing this are not being cruel or doing it out of jealousy, they are doing it to allow their daughters to live a "normal" life with a husband.

Another major reason given is pressure from thier mothers (the child's grandmother), phrased again as concern for the daughter's ability to find a husband. Who knows how many women would refuse if they were not under pressure from elder female kin, but again, in kin based societies, the social realities of kin relationships (the amount of influence elders have & the possible consequences of not going along with the norm) are quite different than what we experience in "the West".

That's another complication in the discussions around this issue -- the vast majority of the women who continue the practice are not sick, viscious, evil women, they are often women succombing to the pressures of society. Calling them weak is not even entirely fair, because social consequences in small kin-based soceities with little mobility (as compared to our ability to move to a new town where nobody knows us or our pasts) are often far more deeply felt.

 

what would happen if fgm was made illegal?

certain countries already have laws against it, but it still goes on.

also, keep in mind that when some cultural practices are outlawed, it makes them more desirable.

the few restrictions that might be in place would be lost. compaired to the sanitation standards in the us and europe, their practices are already seen as disgustingly unsanitary... especially considering the spread of aids in africa. change must occur within their culture. i don't agree with fgm, but making it completely illegal would probably have the same reprecussions as making abortion illegal. poor sanitation will become worse. low standards will become lower. "doctors" will refuse to provide you with aftercare, because they may fear getting caught and arrested. again, i do not agree with the practice... but if it is going to happen reguardless of legality, it must be done in the safest way possible. look at the war on drugs -- when something becomes illegal, it does not mean that it ends. cultural practices will not change overnight. we can't drop bombs and hope that solves things, but we can help them create change within their own culture.

i'm almost afraid to make my next point. i don't know entirely how i feel about it, so please feel free to discuss this (in a nice way!).

a lot of fgm occurs illegally already. a young girl has no voice when it comes to fgm. if the laws cannot end it, the people must end it. obviously, this will take a lot of time. until it can be stopped, what can we do to protect the safety of the young girls during the process? perhaps inform practitioners about sanitation. provide them with antibiotics, anisthesia and antiseptics. provide them with medical tools. this sounds bad, i'm sure... but wouldn't it be in the best interest of the young girl if the procedure was done with a clean scapel and not a rusted tin-can lid? we cannot stop fgm immediately... so until it can end, we must ensure the safety of the young girls.

it's kind of like the argument for sex-ed in public schools, or giving high schoolers condoms. it seems like it's condoning sex... but if kids are going to have sex anyway, we must ensure it's safe sex. the difference being that kids choose to have sex, whereas (i believe, especially in the case of young girls) parents generally decide on fgm for their daughter. reguardless, it is still pertinant to sexual health.

 

Here's an interesting article on that very idea: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/000719.php

 

that's a great article.. it brings up points i didn't even think about. thank you. i've gotta put a lot more thought into this idea...

 

I do not beleive that war will solve this problem. But EDUCATION can. In Egypt, where almost 100% of womyn were mutilated (I refused to call this circumcision!) education, in womyn's birth control clinics, reduced the incidence of mutilation. The Egyption government did make it against the law, but it is not enforced. It still goes on, but is is becoming less common. Once men start to except unmutilated womyn, the mothers of these girls will not be afraid to let their girls remain unmolested by a granny with a broken bottle. (Same goes for little boys and thier penises in our culture! Parents need to understand that acceptance of INTACT genitals is a must.)

War solves nothing IMO.

Education solves much. And at less risk and no death and violence and backlash and hatred.

Blessings and prayers for poor little children deprived of their sexual organs.

 

lawn girl and dawnsky, thanks for giving me a different outlook (knid of on things..)

about the moms- im sorry if i made it sound like they were cruel and stuff.. but.. i think that all the countries need to work together to provide the women of africa with a different perspective on things- it shouldnt HAVE to be liek that... yet i still stand by one thing- dont the mothers remeber what it was liek for them? cant they feel it should be different? that maybe the chances of marrying some man might never happen...

thinking over what i said.. banning it wont realyl stop it from happening. people will want it more. but these people should think a little bit here- or maybe we should try to understand the symbolic meaning of how they cuold possibly think fgm is a symbol of purity. i have heard of awful cases in which the fgm was not done properly and the woman's uretha (sp?) was cut in a certain way where she couldnt contrl her bladder- i mean like, it wont make the situation any better for th e male and thegirl because she will be seen as a social outcast. i read about girls liek so being liek that- they were forced to lvie in a shack, secluded in her own environment - it was on an oprah show and was very sad.


lawngirl- i hate to say this.. but i do agree with you in a sligt way. liek the high schoolers and the condom things- peopel are gonna do it anyways so why not ensure it can be done in the safest way possible?

until the day people see this "symbolism" of how - exactly how all this can be a symbol of purity and like.. a way for a woman to get a husband(and im ggoing to be honest, i find it realyl realyl shallow for it to be the "only" way a woman can get married and accepted under the presure of her culture)- until the day this stops.. we realyl do have to ensure that they get it done as harmlessly as possible.

maggie sugar is right- education is key here. realyl realyl realy. i think we should forget about fundraising for like, dopey things that the government could randomly give out- we have to help other countries too that need it a bit more by providing them with things liek education and anesthetics- certified doctors.

yeah, i pray for the girls too. and well.. the men.