The way you view sexuality and express yourself in your connection with others sexually has everything to do with the progress of the human race. Effectively supporting the objectification of women and becoming a mere consumer in the scope of human interaction is not only supporting an abusive industry, but allowing them to belittle the human sexual experience to the point where it threatens our ability to interact in meaningful ways. That's very big of you. We're all very impressed. If it's closed minded to find the shallow and degrading inmages punted to us by the porn industry to be more laughale than erotic, then I'm closed minded and proud. I guess I must be weird, but I've always been able to have amazing sex without the want or need for wet, dildo-toting 'lesbians' entering the equation.
I agree. But it is people's right to have an opinion about it. If we don't have opinions, we can never begin to understand things. If we don't understand things, we don't grow. Bi mac analogy time again. Enjoying something doesn't make it good for you (or for society for that matter). The real question is whether the deep rooted psychological reasons for such behaviour are motivating us towards healthy sexual relationships, or stunting our individual growth and the growth of society. I don't believe this to be a simple question with any absolute rights or wrongs, but it's a question that deserves asking. And where do you draw the "it's fine by me" line? Don't you have an opinion on two people smearing shit on each other and licking it off? Seems to me that's really something worth having a fucking opinion on. 'Consenting adults' is a cop-out. With the qualifier of 'in some ways', I agree. However it's hard for me to regard a women with some blokes arm inserted in her rectum up to the elbow to be as exploited as the person viewing the image. I'd be more open to the argument that it was ultimately similarly degrading for both subject and viewer. Define 'palatable' in this context. We're not talking about prudishness here. There's a difference between activities that aren't of interest to us and activites that we find 'unpalatable'. Why should that be? Agreed. But as generalisations go, it's a reasonable one to make in connection with the porn 'industry'. I can't help thinking of the talking cow in the Restaurant at the End of the Universe that's been bred to be eaten, and seems quite happy offering up choice cuts of itself. I think these are simply the people who're smart enough to realise when they're being degraded. Yes, I agree. I think this 'buzz chasing' is very destructive though, and probably one of the reasons why our planet (or at least our species) is on the brink of destruction. However, I also think that porn's a manifestation of much more than just this need for a buzz. Agreed. I think the porn industry is different from other industies though because it degrades the subject and the observer in a very personal and fundamental way. Just to be clear, I'm not interested in making any moral judgements about anyone involved in porn, either as a performer or as an observer (I do have moral judgements about those running the 'industry', but that's another issue). Nor would I seek to control what people get up to in the privac of their own homes. So long as all parties are consenting money is not being used as a lever, then they're free to do as they wish as far as I'm concerned. I do, however, think that as a society, we have not only a right, but a duty to question our sexual values and the effects that they have upon us. And to me, that's the real clincher. How healthy is society? Coz from here, it looks pretty fucked up to me. Porn's just another symptom of this.
Well if people want to spend an evening getting covered in poo, then as long as I'm not near their extractor fan it's ok with me. The thought turns my stomach but I'm not going to question their choice of fun, seriously. I really am not going to make a judgement on someone elses fetishes. I might not understand it or want to do it myself but it really is not my place to make judgements. Anyway this is the extreme end of the scale, something that is practised by a small minority (I assume) There are also other more acceptable things I find generally don't fit with my personal tastes. Without wanting to sound homophobic, simply seeing two gay men kissing makes me turn my nose up. Still won't make any judgement about people who do it though. It's fine if it makes them happy. I can look beyond my own stomach ... thats what I meant by palateable. Actually, moving back to other end of the porn scale I find page three of the Sun or the contents of the Daily Sport some of the most ridiculous things ever, if I buy a newspaper or a tabloid I'm buying it for the news and not to see tits. That is something I really can't get my head around. At least all the fetish stuff is only there if you look for it (Or it used to be before the internet came along).
It's not about making judgements, Paul. It's about having opinions. It's about attempting to understand human behaviour and the affect it has on ourselves and on each other. If I said that someone shoving ten big macs down their throat in one sitting was unhealthy, would you say I was judging them? If I said that the promotion of fast food was contributing to obesity, would you say I was being judgemental? Yes, exactly. I don't get turned on by gay men kissing, but I don't find it unpalatable. I don't find it disturbing in the same way as seeing someone with their arm up someone's rectum. I'm not talking here about personl taste and deciding if something is or isn't healthy on that basis. I don't find frilly underwear particularly attractive, but I couldn't give a fuck if someone else wants to wear it. In fairness, I think it's a bit dismissive to attempt to pretend that this is an argument about personal taste. I have opinions on what I believe is an isn't healthy sexually. Disagree with me by all means, but don't try and tell me that it's just a matter of taste. If you're buying the sun looking for the news, then good luck finding it
I can see what you're saying totally. Having opinions and making judgements is normal, we all do it but I also think that it's important to be careful with how we express those opinions. I guess I don't know enough about human sexuality/physiology to be able to argue that something is unhealthy or not. However, if ever I do look into it, then I want my opinions to be based on something other than my own personal tastes. Certain practises certainly don't seem very healthy but what I'm saying is that I have to remove my own emotions from the equation and be more objective when making my mind up.
I agree, Paul. This is why I've been very careful to express my opinions as exactly that... opinions, not judgements. Again, I agree. I don't think personal taste has any part to play in the debate. I also don't know enough about human psychology to say anything for certain, which again is why I'm expressing a personal opinion and not making a judgement. All I can base my opinion on is the little I know about psychology and personl observations. Mostly agreed, but emotions are often our first warning sign that something is wrong.
WEll thanks paul i agree with almost all of what you are saying but you seem to manage to get it out better than I, however DoktorAtomik you say that your posts are purely opinion but regularly you say things like....I guess I must be weird, but I've always been able to have amazing sex without the want or need for wet, dildo-toting 'lesbians' entering the equation.....this is belittling of somone elses opinion and contradicts all you have been argueing about, if you want to be able to express opinions and have them valued on an equal playing field you have to see your opinions on the equal playing field without having to poke jobes at others opinions. I gave you mines and you tore into them dismissing what I had to say as someone to far gone to realise what was going on, when infact i was perfectly happy going into what i did, it was consensual and fun, yes fun, just like the millions of people who go out each and every weekend and come home with a different bloke, as I see it I got sex, he got sex, he paid, both happy, i relaise that you will think it was degrading but I had fun, regradless of the money it was fun to do and i guess yeah it was a fantasy or a seeking of a new thrill and yes I would do it again. Love as Always Ailsa xxx
It isn't belittling anything. I find it very strange that something as crass as 'lesbians' shoving huge rubber dildos into each other and making idiotic "oooh, ahhh, yes baby" noises should turn anyone on. That's an opinion. That wasn't a joke. I was entirely serious. Much of what's described as pornography seems pretty comical to me. Sorry, that's crap. I didn't tear into them. I expressed a strong, contrary opinion. I wasn't in the slightest bit confrontational. Did I dismiss your opinions? No, I don't think I did. I have a view of the situation that's so far removed from your own though that there's simply no way for me to express it in a way that you'd find respectful. The problem is, I've seen many people over the years argue that all sorts of destructive behaviour patterns are fun. I've then seen their lives fall apart and those people have ended up very unhappy. I knew one woman who was really heavily into the S&M scene. She organised parties and orgies, swapped partners on a regular basis, and swore blind that she loved it. Now, she's married and settled down with a kid (not that I'm advocating this as a lifestyle!), and swears that she hated her previous life and only ever acted that way becuase her partner at the time was into the scene. I'm sorry if I can't accept what you say, and I mean no disrespect by that. That's the product of my experience though. I've met plenty of people who're into plenty of unusual sexual stuff, and I've never met one who's been what I'd consider to be well balance or happy - although most have claimed that they are. We'll never see eye to eye on this issue, but I'm not judging you or disrespecting you just because I hold an opposing opinion.
I think what she means is use of words like 'idiotic' or 'crass'. These expressions can be interpreted by people as something judgemental or condemning. I know that you may not mean to come across as condemning but your use of words certainly had me on the defensive at first. Another unrelated example. If I was to say "who the hell wants to listen to reggae? That idiotic drum beat and monotone bass is just crass. People who do must have a problem IMHO" I can be seen to be condemning everyone who listens to reggae ... However if I say "I can't stand reggae, the music does nothing for me" I'm expressing my opionion in a non condemning way. Saying that though. there are some things in life that I will condemn and I don't care who knows it. Expressing yourself with the English language on a public forum isn't always an easy thing to do
I think fake lesbians making fake sexual noises to appeal to some stereotyped idea of what men find attractive can reasonably be described as idiotic. I don't remember calling anyone in this thread an idiot? I also find it fairly crass seeing someone stuff a dildo up someone elses arse. Shoot me. It's really not fashionable to have opinions around here, is it?
Well that's not what I was trying to say. I was trying to suggest that your use of certain words could be construed as judging, I do not believe that you intended it to be that way. I am saying that what you said has been interpreted that way. There is a difference. I used the example from your last post to demonstrate this to save me from going back over this whole thread ... but here we go: A question first followed by an assumption that something is definitely shit and pathetic suggesting that I'm not being real This was worded in a way that could imply a put down ... IMHO seemed more like a disclaimer added to the end. the fact? opinions are not facts. You might consider something to be denigrating, which is your right. To state that it definitely is so is to make an assumption "I find it sad" is an expression of an opinion ... however saying that she has "sunk to the point" seems like a put down, she might not feel that way and it is very condemning to say that she has done. It is only up to her to say if she has sunk low or not, this could put anyone on the defensive. "I find it disturbing" is an opinion "this shit" is a judgement In your opinion? That is a very sweeping generalisation and a put down that seems to be aimed at just about anyone who expresses an opinion that is different from yours. I could read that and think. "OK I'm not progressive enough. I might as well get the fuck out of this scene 'cos I'll never fit in" I don't want to argue with you about semantics, I like the way you post and generally trust your outlook and your opinions. In this case though I find my back has been up a few times ... although not so much now. It's all about the way we express ourselves, as I'm probably guilty of it myself at times, but in this case I can see where there has clearly been room for misinterpretation. Diplomacy rules (IMHO)
Talk about quoting someone out of context! That was in relation specifically to one particular variety of porn. Frankly, I'm surprised to find anyone reading this thread finds "'lesbians with shaved cunts, soaping each other up, moaning, playing with dildos" erotic, so I wasn't exactly expecting to be controversial or to cause offence. In relation to your suggestion that it wasn't predominantly women who're exploited by the pornographic industry. If you believe that, then I don't think you're being real. Sorry if that causes you offence. Well now you're seeking to invent insult when it isn't there. It doesn't really matter whether IMHO was intended or not (which it was), because I still believe that anyone who finds pleasure in dominating someone else has a problem. That's my opinion. There's no other way to put it. I remember one of the first nasty pornographic images I saw. It featured a woman being fisted up the arse by a bloke all the way up to his elbow. I still remember the pained grin that she had plastered to her face. I consider it a fact that that image was denigrating. These sort of images are becoming increasingly mainstream, and I don't feel the need to defend that opinion. There's nothing in these images that promotes respect or dignity. Frankly Paul, you are playing fucking semantics. If you want me to pussy foot around to the extent that I avoid saying anything vaguely critical on this thread, then it'd be impossible to express my opinion. I believe that anyone who allows themselves to be used by the pornographic industry is sacrificing their dignity and self respect, and if they can't see that, then I find it sad. That's my opinion. How, exactly, would you suggest I express it in a way that doesn't cause offence? Why? And what's the fucking hang up with judgement anyway? Yes, I believe many, many pornographic images to be foul and depraved shit that illustrates precisely how low we've sunk as a species. That's my opinion. If you wish to infer a judgement from that, then go right ahead. But frankly, I'm getting a little sick of being criticised for holding a fucking opinion. And one that values and respects people, come to that. Yes, it's a generalisation. Sorry, would you like me to qualify that statement with a list of individuals and groups who I don't think it includes? Wouldn't that be a little impractical? Of course, it's also bullshit, because that generalisation wasn't aimed at 'anyone holding a different opinion from mine'. It was aimed at those who can't see any problem with a variety of issues, that, in my opinion, promote cruelty, intolerance and suffering. That doesn't seem very progressive to me. That leaves you with a massive variety of issues on which you can have a different opinion, and I'll never dream of criticising. Enjoy. Doesn't it occur to you that it's everyone's right to express strong feelings on these sorts of issues? I mean if I followed the logic that you seem to be promoting, I'd have sat quietly by in a corner of Nazi Germany, afraid to express my opinion in case I was perceived to be judging anyone. Oops, sorry Adolf, didn't mean to come across as intolerant there. Bullshit. Utter fucking bullshit. Don't blame me for your own paranoia. I could equally say "nobody here conforms to my personal idea of a hippy, I might as well get the fuck out of this scene coz I'll never fit in". Well you've got a funny way of showing it. This is exactly what you're doing! All the comments that I've made have been directed towards pornography as a product of society. I don't like it and I don't believe it's healthy. I think it degrades everyone involved. However, I've never attempted to say that anyone is a bad person for using it or appearing in it. I've never made any moral judgement on that level whatsoever. However, all you seem intent on doing is scrutinising my every post and attempting to read insult where none is intended. And now it's got to the point where you're trawling over my posts and attempting to insert intent that was never there. Not only that, but you're so busy trying to find examples of me judging, that you've missed the real point. The only person doing any judging on this thread is you judging me. I like you Paul, and I generally like the way you express yourself. But you're taking this thread so personally that you're making it impossible for me to express my opinions without being accused of some bullshit about judging. If I was to post according to your criteria as they stand, I wouldn't be able to post at all. Yeah, it does. But not if it gets to the point where we diplomatically sit in silence not expressing our opinions. If you'd get off my case and let me express my opinion, we might be able to have a constructive debate.
This is starting to get silly now, therefore I'm going to keep my quoting to a minimum. You actually told me to get real in relation to this statement: "Both men and women can both find porn stimulating, some couples watch porn together. To say that it is just men who are to blame is a bit of a myth in my opinion. What about gay porn ... who is being exploited there? " That said nothing about whether women were the predominant victims or not, I said that it wasn't just men who were to blame for porn. It was also a reflection on who enjoyed porn and who was in it. Men and women both play a part to varying degrees depending on the material, that really is a fact and very real. I resent being told to "get real" when I'm talking about something that I've had a lot of experience with. I know exploitaition happens and women are the main victims, I'm not denying it. Well this time you have not directed anything at an individual but at a whole situation, I'm actually inclined to be in agreement with you in many cases, but self respect is a very personal thing where people have the right to choose their own levels of dignity. I see many other things which tend to show lack of respect to the self. Telling people how low they might be isn't going to make them want to climb back up. I wasn't criticising you for holding your opionion. There are loads of instances on this thread where I'm agreeing with you. I'm sorry that you think I'm doing that for those reasons. I'm trying to point out where I personally may have misinterpreted you and was trying to show where it was possible for others to do the same. Therefore I own the fact that I may have misread you and was showing you just how I had done so. Anyway ... This is an important subject for me because of my past and my own sexual nature, something which I am currently challenging. I am also seeing the whole thing around commercialised sex is an emotive subject for other people who have posted in here. Therefore I'm trying to be as objective as possible, which is why I am choosing my words as carefully as I can. Aaargh bloody hell. I'm off to bed .. Tomorrow I will go to my university library and get a big book out on human sexual development and maybe a bit of Freud too. ... Good night
I'm sorry, but I still don't think your comments were realistic. Yes, of course men aren't "just to blame" for porn, but that's kinda like saying that Iraq and Britain aren't the only countries involved in Iraq. True, but only as a technicality. Men are far and away the driving gender behind pornography. Well if you want to talk about resentment, I resent misleading statement being made like "To say it is just men who are to blame is a bit of a myth", when all this does is to deflect attention from the real issue - the issue that men have been, and still are, the driving force behind the pornographic industry. I mean really - what percentage of the hit count of your average porn site do you think is women? I understand your point that women also view porn, but statistically their level of participation is insignificant. Participating in perpetuating the fantasy that they haven't sunk low in the first place isn't going to help them either. This wasn't a criticism though, it was a point that needed making in order to explain my position on the issue. Someone tells me that they find participating in porn enjoyable, then I need to say that I believe they've been desensitised or "sunk low" in order to explain my continued problem with such an activity. Again, I find it hard to see how I can express my position in this debate without running the risk of being seen as judgemental. I've attempted not to criticise anyone's participation in porn or use of porn. But even when generalising, it's kinda inevitable that my opinion will be interpreted as a personal criticism. I really fail to see what I can do to mitigate that situation. I understand that Paul, which is one of the things that's making this conversation so frustrating. If you'd just get off my back about judging people, then I'm sure we could communicate with each other without either of us causing offence. The problem is, you're making it impossible for me to express my point of view because you seem to take every expression of that point of view as a judgemental statement. Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't mean you were attempting to silence me or make it difficult for me to express my position, I was saying that this was the affect of the way you were interpreting me. I didn't for a minute believe that this was a deliberate tactic on your part or anything like that. Sorry if I wasn't clear there. Yes, but I could go back over yourposts and point out loads of places where I could've misinterpreted you, but that wouldn't be very productive! Try Pornography by Andrea Dworkin. I found it very upsetting to read, but it's very informative. Can we get back to talking about the issue now? I don't think there needs to be a problem here, it's just a matter of us both listening a bit more carefully to each other I think
I don't honestly know. I guess it would really depend on the site and the content. It'll always be many more men though, that's generally the way of the world. Men are usually (maybe physiologically) more predatory. How many women would make the first move on a guy in a nightclub or just chat someone up in a bar? I don't know the answer to that but it'll be a smaller amount than the men who make the first move. I know a girl who is completely obsessed with all sorts of internet nasties, everything from seeing poor Ken Bigley being decapitated to watching people shitting on each other. I think her kick is that she's viewing the taboo for no other reason than it being "not the done thing"
It is so true that porn is a direct influence on the inequality women have, i see it day to day in the work place... how can you go to a meeting and try to speak on a level playing field with men when pornographic calendars are dotted around the office... sun / sport newspapers on peoples desks etc. I've made a complaint twice at work so far, and things get better for a bit then all the porn creeps back into my office again its embarrassing when i am trying to speak to contractors that are supposed to work for me and across the office are piccies of nude women... when i was off ill with flu earlier this year they had a book on why i was off work, taking bets etc 1. shes pregnant and dosnt know who the father is 2. drink driving etc etc ... thats how women are viewed in my office and in many arenas in life…. as a joke / an object. If i start something back they would close ranks and i doubt i would get anyone to support what i experience day to day you know how it goes…. look at that case at the moment of the woman that got raped by two coppers? They are now saying she asked to be spit roasted, they closed ranks, she'll never win, and it will probably destroy her no real man would would have sex with a woman so drunk anyway... especially coppers, they should know better. i think i mentioned this in a post somewhere?…. but just because we are a little further on and have more equality (in sex race sexuality etc) dosnt mean the war is over, just cos some people dont see it, dosnt mean this isn’t true. No offence to paul or smartie, but they are both white, middle class (whatever middle class means) men... they aren’t gonna see / experience the problem day to day. I have a theory that women that get into porn etc are one of 3 things (basically) 1. disturbed by past abuse 2. the obvious one of low income / drug abuse and 3. lacking in self esteem and think somehow porn empowers them... Most women I know have had abuse at some level from men. From what I see and experience Porn is a direct link to the abuse and inequality women experience in our world today. Not the only one, but one of the biggies. http://www.gendertrust.org.uk/showarticle.php?aid=20 Love Clairexxxx
No offence taken. (apart from being called middle class maybe ~ my dad was a window cleaner, step dad a builder and mum a copy typist if you don't mind, in fact we had to get up an hour before we went to bed and scrape the road clean with our tongues before stealing bikes to get to school on ... hardship? hardship? hmmph ) Anyway .... I've actually got to do a presentation in a couple of weeks on an "approach to social work practice" and I've purposely chosen the "feminist approach" for exactly these reasons.
Yeh I ummed and ahhed about saying middle class (thats why i put...whatever that means after it) Thanks for listening to what I said with an open mind, although it isn't just a feminist issue to want equality... it's the issue of wanting to be treated equally as a human being whatever sex / race / sexuality / "class" etc you are. I've never really called myself a feminist... I just want to earn a living and live my life without prejudice, disrespect and hatred. Factors that inhibit mine and others right to do so, I fight against. Not always because I choose to, many times just because I have to I hope this makes sense to you. Love Clairexxx
To be honest ... even with everything I've posted I find nudey calenders and shit like that offensive myself. Both the male and the female ones. It's a matter of it being wrong time and place and also about having some tact, some taste and some respect. I wonder how your workmates would feel if you stuck up some "naked fireman" calendar or similar.
