Can people keep their religion out of politics? can our nation?

Many threads in here end up discussing religion. Many people like to use religion as their reasoning for their viewpoints or their support for Bush. I think we all know Bush is not a true Christian.
I've noticed some posters claim that the creators of our country founded this nation on religion. This is not true at all, but is a common misconception.

Quotes from our founding fathers:
I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fable and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world...
The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind....to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Thomas Jefferson

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
Thomas Paine

Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions.
George Washington

I personally think it's dangerous that self-proclaimed Christian fundamentalists have stolen our government and put in place an agenda with evil plans for the world and the oil it holds. I see religion as a sort of disease.

 

You left out a few good quotes:

John Adams

1754
"It is the duty of the clergy to accommodate their discourses to the times, to preach against such sins as are most prevalent, and recommend such virtues as are most wanted. For example, if exorbitant ambition and venality are predominant, ought they not to warn their hearers against those vices? If public spirit is much wanted, should they not inculcate this great virtue? If the rights and duties of Christian magistrates and subjects are disputed, should they not explain them, show their nature, ends, limitations, and restrictions, how muchsoever it may move the gall of Massachusetts."

June 21, 1776
"Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand.

"The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty."

Oct. 11, 1798 (Address to the military)
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

On March 6, 1799, President John Adams called for a National Fast Day.
"As no truth is more clearly taught in the Volume of Inspiration, nor any more fully demonstrated by the experience of all ages, than that a deep sense and a due acknowledgement of the growing providence of a Supreme Being and of the accountableness of men to Him as the searcher of hearts and righteous distributer of rewards and punishments are conducive equally to the happiness ofindividuals and to the well-being of communities....

"I have thought proper to recommend, and I hereby recommend accordingly, that Thursday, the twenty-fifth day of April next, be observed throughout the United States of America as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting and prayer; that the citizens on that day abstain, as far as may be, from their secular occupation, and devote the time to the sacred duties of religion, in public and in private; that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the most high God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore his pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgressions, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to his righteous requisitions in time to come; that He would interpose to arrest the progress of that impiety and licentiousness in principle and practice so offensive to Himself and so ruinous to mankind; that He would make us deeply sensible that "righteousness exalteth a nation but sin is a reproach to any people" (Proverbs 14:34)"

August 28, 1811
"Religion and virtue are the only foundations, not only of all free government, but of social felicity under all governments and in all the combinations of human society."


John Quincy Adams

July 4, 1821
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”

"From the day of the Declaration...they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct."


John Hancock

April 15, 1775
"In circumstances dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that, whilst every prudent Measure should be taken to ward off the impending Judgements....All confidence must be withheld from the Means we use; and reposed only on that GOD who rules in the Armies of Heaven, and without whose Blessing the best human Counsels are but Foolishness--and all created Power Vanity;”


Patrick Henry

March 23, 1775
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased a the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience are incompatible with freedom."

"It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains."


James Madison (Architect of the U.S. Constitution & Co-Author of the Federalist Papers)

From his notes
Note: Perfidy is defined as "The quality or state of being faithless or disloyal."

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

"Religion [is] the basis and Foundation of Government."

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage....Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."


Dr. Jedidah Morse

"To the kindly influence of Christianity, we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoy. In proportion, as the genuine effects of Christianity are diminished in any nation, either through unbelief, or the corruption of its doctrines, or the neglect of its institutions; in the same proportion will the people of the nation recede from the blessings of genuine freedom and approximate the miseries of complete despotism." (1799)


William Penn (Founder of Pennsylvania)

"If thou wouldst rule well, thou must rule for God, and to do that, thou must be ruled by him....Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."


George Washington
From Washington's First Inaugural address
“I hope that the foundation of our national policy will be laid in the pure and immutable principles of private morality. The preeminence of free government exemplifies by all the attributes which can win the affections of its citizens and command the respect of the world."

In his Inaugural Speech, April 30, 1789
"...it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes...."

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States."

October 3, 1789, National Day of Thanksgiving
"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor....

"Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the twenty-sixth day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these United States...

"that we then may all unite unto him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection ofthe people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war;

"for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed....

"And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions...to promote the knowledge and practice of the true religion and virtue....

Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3rd of October, A.D. 1789"

George Washington's personal prayer book, consisting of 24 pages in his field notebook, written in his own handwriting:
"Bless my family, kindred, friends and country, be our God and guide this day and forever for His sake, who lay down in the grave and arose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen."

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."

"It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being."

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens."


Daniel Webster

"Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster, and what has happened once in 6000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to the Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail, there will be anarchy throughout the world."

"If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instruction and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may ovenvhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity."

"Finally, let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers were brought hither by their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate its principles with the elements of their society, and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political, or literary.

"Let us cherish these sentiments, and extend this influence still more widely; in full conviction that that is the happiest society which partakes in the highest degree of the mild and peaceful spirit of Christianity."
"God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it."

"The hand that destroys the Constitution rends our Union asunder forever."

"If religious books are not widely circulated among the masses in this country, I do not know what is going to become of us as a nation. If truth be not diffused, error will be; If God and His Word are not known and received, the devil and his works will gain the ascendancy, If the evangelical volume does not reach every hamlet, the pages of a corrupt and licentious literature will; If the power of the Gospel is not felt throughout the length and breadth of the land, anarchy and misrule, degradation and misery, corruption and darkness will reign without mitigation or end."


Noah Webster (The father of public education in America)

"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed....No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."

In 1832, Noah Webster published his History of the United States, in which he wrote:
"The brief exposition of the constitution of the United States, will unfold to young persons the principles of republican government; and it is the sincere desire of the writer that our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament or the Christian religion.”

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles, which enjoins humility, piety, and benevolence; which acknowledges in every person a brother, or a sister, and a citizen with equal rights. This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free Constitutions of Government.”

"The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all of our civil constitutions and laws....All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.”

"When you become entitled to exercise the right of voting for public officers, let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God. The preservation of a republican government depends on the faithful discharge of this duty.”

"If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made not for the public good so much as for the selfish or local purposes.”

"Corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the laws; the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizens will be violated or disregarded.”

"If a republican government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws."

"Corruption of morals is rapid enough in any country without a bounty from government. And...the Chief Magistrate of the United States should be the last man to accelerate its progress."

 

Our founding fathers have nothing to do with current day political affairs.

 

Sad, but true.

I believe in people's right to practice theism or atheism -- it's their constitutional right. However, I don't think the government should be instilling religious values on people -- through policy or otherwise -- as we are currently seeing with this administration.

I am an Atheist, and I think organized religion has done far more harm than good. I don't have anything against people who are religious, though, whether they are Christian or Muslim, or Buddhist. That is their choice. But, like you said, Bush is not a real Christian. All evidence proves he couldn't care less about Christianity. He is just using Christianity to rally the minions. Frankly, I think it's disgusting as much as it is frightening that so many people so naively buy into this propaganda.

Has anyone seen the recent Bush campaign ad/propaganda piece featuring that teenage girl who lost her father on 9/11? Well, what I found so sick and disturbing about this is that they tried to portray Bush as a healer, with "godlike" powers. Of course this was done subtly. But basically it was like, "I was sad and depressed until George Bush hugged me. Now everything is better and I am happy again."

Of course this is not what the girl said, but this is what the ad was basically subliminally trying to convey to people -- primarily gullible Christians who will right away pick up on this this and buy right into it. If this isn't a form of mind control, I don't know what is.

 

Maybe thats part of our problem.

 

Oh yeah, man. That Bush as Christ ad blew my mind. I just saw it for the first time a couple hours ago. I must say that I'm impressed. It might be arrogant, assinine, or ignorant, but it's ballsy, too. I give his people props for that one.

As far as separating religion and politics, it's beyond me how or why a religious person would want to do that. If you have faith in your beliefs then you would most certainly use those beliefs to inform all your decisions. If you are against religion, or ambivalent about it, then that, too, informs your politics.

 

I think Bush's understanding of Christianity is skewed, but I think he truly believes in it. By contrast, all of Kerry's religious prattling is nothing but cynical posturing.

Bingo!

 

i wish they would too..the whole point in being an american is being able to have freedom of speach and being able to practice your own religion but the "rulers" of this country shouldnt bring their personal religion into running the country

 

this is an understatement

we have lost sight of the source

 

As far as separating religion and politics, it's beyond me how or why a religious person would want to do that. If you have faith in your beliefs then you would most certainly use those beliefs to inform all your decisions. If you are against religion, or ambivalent about it, then that, too, informs your politics.


The problems come when it comes to the acceptance and understanding of others views and situations. When doctrine and dogma take the place of empirical evidence.

Someone that has total faith that they are right and power can be very dangerous.

If you believe, really have faith in the fact that Jews are dangerous and the world would be better off without them would you try and do it?

If you believe you have the divine right to rule do you stand aside when others want you to give up power?

If you believe your god has told you to stone to death adulterers would you think it just?

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There seems to be those on this forum that seem to think as part of their religious beliefs that the real world has very little influence on a persons actions. They seem to claim that social, economic or cultural factors have very little importance as to why people act in certain ways for them it is just a matter of people being moral or immoral.

Who dictates what is or isn’t moral behaviour and the answer is, they do, either you follow their tenets and are moral or go against them and are immoral.

Is there rational reasons for their beliefs no, it is based on what they interpret as the meaning of the words of a priest or book. Do they think they need to have reasoned or rational arguments for their views no, it is what they believe in it is based on faith not evidence.

I will fight against those people that want power not to help people but to push their dogmatic views, be their dogmas irrationally based on racism, politics or religion.



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I like that one...

 

I'll second that... Jefferson is one-o-my heros....


This country was not founded on religion, although many of our founding fathers were religious. They went to GREAT lengths to separate church and state because history gives us dozens of examples of how corrupt combining the two becomes. A lesson many still haven't learned...

 

Many of this country's founding principles, including freedom of religion, were strongly influenced by Christian thought. Even the deist Jefferson "borrowed" many Christian ideas, as when he wrote of man being "endowed by his Creator with certain inalienable rights" and said that he "trembled for his country when [he] considered that God is just."

 

there's a difference between your religious beliefs acting as guiding principles for your choices, and saying "what i say is right because the christian bible says it is."

 

I realize that, but I don't think Balbus does.

 

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The difficulty comes between what someone says and what someone does.

Jefferson may have said that all men were equal but he owned slaves was theirs a lesser god?

Someone can say that they will be compassionate or that they will be a force for unity and do the opposite. They can say their religious beliefs only guide their views but act dogmatically.

Think about it if you have utter faith your are right and that it is ordained and countenanced by your god, how far would you go to make that course possible?

Would you manipulate information to misinform people? Would you confuse people about the truth? Would disregard valid warnings in favour of your faith?

In my opinion in politics wanting to do good is to be applauded, but to believe you will do good based not on reason but on faith can so often be just dangerous folly.


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Atheists are by no means immune to such fanaticism. Many tens of millions have been murdered in attempts to build secular (Marxist) utopia.

 

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Oh Huck i so much agree with you, but i've said that so many times that i'm sure you already knew i would agree with you.


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