Is there any place for conspiracy theory in political debate?

P.S. can you move all my threads to the conspiracy forum now please,or just delete them?
i officially boycott this forum!

 

Balbus, the problem is that our political system is STEEPED in conspiracies, and every issue we could possibly discuss is, in one way or another, tied to some sort of Conspiracy Theory.

To tell you the truth, if y'all are serious about putting all of the threads that relate to a CT into the CT forum,

stand by,

because EVERY post will need to be moved...

In fact, i was just reading a thread in Socialism that needs to be moved, also,

and will begin actively searching all of the threads to report to y'all any that contain CT's!

Either that, or y'all could call Skip to come in and settle us all down...

 

It seems i have to repeat this since there are still seem to be people ignoring what it says -

It is very easy to spot conspiracy theory and conspiracy theorists

There is a world of difference between the actions and machinations of politically motivated groups, movements and classes of real and rational politics and the supposed shadow governments of blood lines, Lucifer worshippers or pixies that is put forward by conspiracy theorists.

The first has debatable views and aspirations that can be analysed in a reasonable and rational way the conspiracy theorists hides from any rational debate behind scare mongering and scapegoating.

 

i wasn't ignoring it, Balbus,

i was hoping that you'd take a moment to stop and think about what you're saying, there.

The entire Obama election, and his presidency, is, and will be, wrapped in multiple layers of Conspiracy Theory. Will you be moving ALL of those threads to the CT forum?

Which brings us to the next little snag: If the two of y'all (or however many it might be) have the final say, any of us that hold different views than y'all will always feel like THAT is the reason our thread got moved, while so-and-so's, who agrees with y'all 85% of the time, gets to stay.

For myself, i can tell you that there have only been TWO members that i have ever reported, and the winner (highest total reports) was...

ARISTARTLE !!!

So i hope you'll pardon me, while i slink on off to the CT forum to post up some Political threads...

 

And the other argument of conspiracy theory seems to be…well there doesn’t seem to be another rational argument. They’re just saying they want to propagate conspiracy theory outside of the conspiracy theory forum because they want to. And why…well again the only reason seems to be that they want the right to curtail genuine political debate by saying everything is connected to conspiracy theory.

Political debate is based on a discussion of the differing merits of differing socio-economic models.

It seems to me that many conspiracy theorists try to shut down such discussions, for example - someone that is of one political frame of mind who dislikes their opponents' ideas can use conspiracy theory to attack those ideas not on their merits but by claiming that they are just an invention or tool of a secret conspiracy of the NWO, Illuminati, Lucifer worshippers or tooth fairies.

It doesn’t really matter who the conspirators are or even if they exist it stops being a matter of the merits of differing systems and turns into a fundamentalist crusade against evil shadows.

This means that a political viewpoint can be portrayed as a matter of saving the world from evil and not about whether its ideas can produce beneficial social and economic change or not.

And conversely anyone that opposes the conspiracy backed ideas on rational political grounds is portrayed as either a patsy for evil or is part of the evil conspiracy

It isn’t the holding of differing views, it the point that many Conspiracy theorists refuse to discuss or defend those views in any rational way. They seem to be using conspiracy theories to try and trump any rational, open or honest political debate, with the tactics of fear mongering and scapegoating.

 

It appears to me there are a couple particular conspiracy theories that have come up in my short time here within the political forum and it is discussions surrrounding them that end up curtailing so much of the honest political discourse. Those being Zionism the New World Order.

As seen in the below quote:From the politics forum
"The Israelis, in particular Mossad, as a proven fact have actually been behind several of the "terrorist bombings" in Israel (much like the US has been behind most of the big terrorist attacks in the US). Such violence only plays into the hands of the Zionist hierarchy, who are looking for any problem-reacton-solution scenario they can to justify military action on their Muslim neighbors, while furthering the Zionist/imperialist agenda."
(apologies to the original poster, I am not picking on anyone in particular, this just fit well with my point)

the above statement smacks of Conspiracy Theory and has little to do with honest political discussion. He presents as fact that which is cetainly not.

According to Balbus
"There is a world of difference between the actions and machinations of politically motivated groups, movements and classes of real and rational politics and the supposed shadow governments of blood lines, Lucifer worshippers or pixies that is put forward by conspiracy theorists."

For most of us, the above seems like a ridiculous statement.
The Mossad no more is behind terrorist acts in Israel than the US government is behind the ones in the US.
That the poster states it as fact what we see as supposition does nothing to to add to the political discussion. We will never be able refute what he knows as fact because we are informed by a media controlled by these groups. Our information is filtered through them and we only get what they choose for us to see.

My feeling is that statements such as above have no place in honest political discourse since there is no way to proove them as wrong.

 

Oops.

A slight flaw in your theory...

The media ARE

!!!

Even they admit their bias...

So now what?

Yeah. Conspiracy Theories are part-and-parcel of who, how and why Politics works, so resistance is sort of futile... :rofl:

 

But, you did make an issue of people attacking you. I spoke with you through PMs about it all. Hiptastic took your PM as a direct threat; Not as if you were asking him nicely to tone down his posts.

You accuse me of being a femNazi crazed Moderator blood thirsty for power, and of ultimately going to ban you in this thread:

If you don't wish to dictate what people can and cannot say, then why do you make blanket statements that people are "asleep" and "stupid" because they don't believe in the conspiracies that you believe in?

It's the same attitude.

Look, I want vast opinions, points of views, and input to continue in this Forum. We need theories that go against the grain of political discourse and open the boundaries of political thought. But we just can't go on to let what is a conspiracy theory agenda to perpetrate throughout all political debates, threads, and discussions. It can oftentimes roadblock political theory. When that happens, I'd like to think that Balbus and I have the support of all you guys here to let other views thrive and to encourage more ideas to flow.

If a thread can't go any further in a political sense because of such a roadblock, then it might have a better chance of continuing discussion in another forum. That's all.

I personally have no intentions of deleting opinions, viewpoints, and such as long as there is room to challenge to these ideas in a political context here. That is the issue here. There can be moments when two opposing views collide and some posters refute any room for political discourse. This is a politics forum! There should be ample room for everyone.

I know how you feel. That politics is a sham for what conspiracy theories really can tell about the systems in place. But we have to be able to let that be a point of view among many others in this Forum.

In your opinion do you think that other political points of views are allowed a voice and are accepted and welcomed here in this Forum? Or has it all lately been about proving and disproving Conspiracies here in our discussions?

It's my view, that we can work this out. That we can make room for all political viewpoints without stifling the actual issues.

Let's get back to debating issues in this Forum. That's what makes this place fun to read and play around in.

 

So Fyrenza, do you believe the media are controlled by the "Zionist hierarchy" and the "New World Order" with the intent of "furthering the Zionist/imperialist agenda"?

I believe we have a predominately free media with no hidden goals of global domination.

In the politics forum a recent thread about Obama authorizing the bombing on Pakistani terrorist camps, there were comments such as "Zionism gets all horny just thinking about turning it into another Iraq" in reference to the situation.

This was not, nor should it have even been any part of the issue in the thread, but, as often happens, some find a need to tie the issue to the theme of a Zionist Global Conspiracy.

The issue here ought to be that the democratically elected president chose to act, due to complicated and difficult geopolitical issues, in a manner very similar to his republican predessor. Zionist conspiracy theory should never have entered into this thread. It is this topic shift from political debate to conspiracy theory that is, in my opinion the reason for certain posters being warned (it was a warning only) that they may be deleted or moved.

 

So Jaycola, are you saying powerful corporate interests don't have any control over the media and do not wish to influence people's opinion according to their desires? You think the elite want a public that can think freely and critically?

 

And anyone who does not believe the political zionists exercise control over the media in this country, simply needs to look at this brief 8 minute video, which comes from a pretty mainstream documentary about media bias relating to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN_zYkJFXjo

 

No rat. I agree that media bias exists. In fact we choose which media we choose to consume based on those very biases.

I am saying there is no clandestine cabal with an aspiration for global domination that is as the root cause of all global political events. That is where, in my opinion, rational political discourse and conspiracy theory conflict.

Do you honestly think Obama's dicision to allow a military operation within Pakistan had anything to do with Zionists?

If the discussion had been only about the genuine expectations of Americans for a new attitude in foreign affairs by those who elected Obama that would be an acceptable form of political discussion. When we start talking about surreptitious actions and ulterior motives by Obama's hidden handlers, that is where the real political discussion is breaks down.

 

But those who are informed know it doesn't matter because they control and administer both sides of every issue. It's all based around the false left/right paradigm. Neither side gives you the truth, it serves only to divide and conquer. I see no real difference between CNN and FOX News, and neither do many people as it is still corporate media.

Obama is controlled by the establishment. They tell him what to do and he follows orders. I don't care if you call them zionists or whatever. I simply refer to them as the elite. Zionism is really only one branch the elite control. It is not the top of the pyramid as some believe. "The Jews" do not run the world.

But I find that to be hogwash, and so do many of the people here.

 

Those who are informed, meaning those who know that "the Fed" has five parts and that the Canadian President is a globalist? Those who know that it is a matter of public record that Mossad created Hamas but unfortunately someone left those public records on a bus and we called lost and found but nobody turned them in?

As for your free speech, freedom of speech isn't using HipForums as your personal megaphone. If Aristartle came to Sovereign Sentience and told you what you could and could not write about, that is censorship. That is restricting your free speech.

Telling you that conspiracy theories go in the conspiracy forum, which is just as wide open to participation as the politics forum, is not the nazi like tyranny you are embarassing yourself by claiming. For someon that tries to get his critics banned and launches campaigns to smear all supporters of Israel as paid agents, you really haven't got a leg to stand on.

 

But check this out ~

Zionist conspiracy theories were a part of the last administration,

and with this admin following on that trail, continuing the trek,

i don't see the problem with presuming that the same Zionist Conspiracy Theories would be pertinent.

Also, with this flippin' birth certificate/constitution thing, i'm beginning to think that some of these supposed Conspiracy Theories aren't ever going to have a provable conclusion.

 

For the record, I never said conspiracy theory (or conspiracy facts) should be part of the political forum. What I said was that I believe talking about the motivation behind political moves has no place in the debate. I think it is more constructive to talk about the wisdom of a certain decision. The motivation is never known.

For example, the closing Gitmo thread. Conspiracy theory says it’s a smoke screen, so Obama looks like a savior while actually simply detaining people and torturing them elsewhere. That may prove to be true. But another conspiracy theory would say he is motivated to close Gitmo because he is a closet muslim. Yet another theory of his motivation is that he is a complete liberal, and hasn’t the sense to know how to protect America in a dangerous world.

They can’t all be right.

There is more than enough meat to the question, is it in America’s best interest to close Gitmo? Without adding motivation. I want to hear each person’s opinion on THAT, rather then ever more abstract thoughts.

My feelings on conspiracy and debate is basically this: Imagine you and two other people are coal mine workers trapped underground in a cave in. You find a escape mine shaft that forks in two directions, and you are trying to figure out which direction to go. You say go right, the other person says go left and the third person says, “I think the cave in wasn’t an accident. I think the government blew up the mine.”

 

Wow. This is just unmazing... I just read all the posts since last visit and can not even believe what's going on here. How in Gods name do you have a debate when people are not allowed to post their thoughts and opinions if they disagree??? PULEEZE explain how you can possibly separate politics from "conspiracy theory". There are a lot of CTs that have a lot of credibility, and just because our government SAYS they are not true does not mean they are not true. OH HORRORS!!!! I just said a conspiracy theorist statement!!! I guess I don't belong here.
I'm sorry, but I'm with the majority on this one. If people who don't trust the government are to be censored, then I guess we will mostly all need a new place to post our ideas where we can say what we think... This place could get rather boring.

Ever feel like this thread was a set-up?

 

This... thread is about Zionists now, eh?

 

Well, GARY, I don't see how I am embarrassing myself as most of the people in this thread seem to agree more with me than you.

 

Why are you hell-bent on ganging up on everyone who doesn't agree with you?