Single-Payer National Health

Aristartle · Jan 23, 2009

Pressed_Rat said:

Yeah, I am pretty much biased against ALL mainstream health care which is based around treatment rather than prevention. That's why I am so big into vitamins and naturopathic remedies, which they are trying to basically outlaw all around the world with Codex Alimentarius.

I don't think I've been to a doctor since I was 18. I do have health insurance, but I am not trusting of doctors (most of them). But, then again (knock on wood), I haven't even really needed to visit a doctor, either.
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:]

That's exactly it, we do have very good preventive care here in Canada. All of our blood tests, physicals, x-rays, birth control, etc. are covered with a health card.

I've been to see my family doctor at least half a dozen times this year. I mean, there is no harm done getting your blood tested and blood pressure measured and urine samples and all that. I like going in for annual pelvic exams, asthma puffers if I need them, renew my ritalin scripts etc.

There is no real reason to stay away from visits to your doctor, even just to go in and leave.

My mother used to make appointments for me to speak to my doctor when she thought I was depressed in high school. I'd just go in and talk to him and he'd tell me to take vitamins or something, offer to check my blood and all that stuff.

Aristartle · Jan 23, 2009

But Matt, don't you think you should have a physical? It's been 10 years since you've had one??

Pressed_Rat · Jan 23, 2009

Yeah, well I wasn't saying anything against your system up there, so no need to go on the defensive. I was just stating MY personal opinion on health care in general.

Women have more of a need to go to the doctor regularly than men because of the OB-GYN stuff and breast examinations and whatnot. Frankly, I see no need to go to the doctor. Other than being slightly overweight (which I am working on), I am very healthy. I haven't been sick in the past three years, even with a cold. Even if I went to the doctor and he found I have high blood pressure or something (which I don't have), what is he going to do for me? Put me on medicine? I see no need for any of that because all health problems can ultimately be cured through diet, nutrition and exercise. Most doctors are really just drug pushers for big pharma. No, I am not saying ALL doctors are, but the overwhelming majority.

Pressed_Rat · Jan 23, 2009

Aristartle said:

But Matt, don't you think you should have a physical? It's been 10 years since you've had one??
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Not really. Physicals are pretty silly. All they do is take your blood pressure, measure your height and weight, and maybe a few other things. Most of that I can do at home. I already know I am a bit on the heavy side, so I am working on getting that taken care of by going for long walks, even when it's frigid outside.

Aristartle · Jan 23, 2009

Pressed_Rat said:

Yeah, well I wasn't saying anything against your system up there, so no need to go on the defensive. I was just stating MY personal opinion on health care in general.

Women have more of a need to go to the doctor regularly than men because of the OB-GYN stuff and breast examinations and whatnot. Frankly, I see no need to go to the doctor. Other than being slightly overweight (which I am working on), I am very healthy. I haven't been sick in the past three years, even with a cold. Even if I went to the doctor and he found I have high blood pressure or something (which I don't have), what is he going to do for me? Put me on medicine? I see no need for any of that because all health problems can ultimately be cured through diet, nutrition and exercise. Most doctors are really just drug pushers for big pharma. No, I am not saying ALL doctors are, but the overwhelming majority.
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The bloodwork mapping is nice. Iron checks, vitamin deficiency checks, cacner screenings.... all of that.

I mean, if you're covered for checkups, why aren't you going?

If your doctor wants to put you on medications, all you have to say is "No." There is always something he/she can do for you even when you say no to medications. They are like, trained to offer treatment and have a responsibility to refer you to someone who can help you if you need it.

I just think you owe it to yourself to get screened for cancer at least every 10 years. Christ.

Now I'm worked up and worried about you.

Pressed_Rat · Jan 23, 2009

Well, they don't even screen for most types of cancer anyway. As far as the vitamin checks and whatnot, I don't have to worry about that because I megadose most of the important vitamins (vitamin C and D especially) and I try to eat a balanced diet and prepare MOST of the food I eat myself.

Heheh... no need to worry about me. But thank you.

Aristartle · Jan 23, 2009

Ok. But I've got my eye on you.

WalkerInTheWoods · Jan 23, 2009

Aristartle said:

I don't ever have to pay for a single eye examination until I'm 65. It's like, good for that too. Or if you get your stomach stapled, the government pays for that too. All necessary medical examinations and tests at your family physician office is like, all paid for too.

It rocks my socks.
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You pay taxes don't you? If not someone is. I am sure the doctors are not working for free. Someone is paying for your health care.

It is like me saying I just paid $20 for an eye exam and two pairs of contact lenses a few years ago. The reality of it is that I had vision insurance that I wound up paying about $80 a year for. So really I paid $100 for that exam and contacts.

I am not attacking your health care system. I know very little about it. But when people say they have free health care (or that the government pays for it) the reality is that it is not free. Someone is paying for it.

xexon · Jan 23, 2009

We Americans are used to paying for it.

We shoveled 600 billion dollars into our military last year. Bailed out every Tom, Dick, and Harry on Wallstreet, and still have to give Israel it's 3 billion or so "cut" every year.

The genocide must go on, you know.

The thing that bothers me is it's OUR money. We should HAVE to vote on what we're willing to spend it on instead of giving up that power to others.

They're robbing us blind these past few months.

x

gardener · Jan 23, 2009

HawaiianEye said:

I do agree that whatever is done the insurance companies have NO PLACE in the healthcare system.And as far as criminal Big Pharma they should be regulated to the max.So much more I can say about how bad Big Pharma is but I don't have the time.---If the US wants to have socialized medicine do it the right way by copying the countries that do it best like France,Sweden etc.
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I agree with you on this...how about that HawaiianEye we don't always disagree.

Something strange just happened in my small town the local hospital held a festival at our fair grounds and advertised Cat Scans, bloodtests etc. available at nominal charges like 50.00 to 150.00, without a doctors orders. Available to anyone that could pay the fee. What did that tell me? That perhaps the medical industry will be the next to ask for a bailout. And those fees? If I had just had one of those in the hospital, I would bet the cost on my insurance bill (If I had insurance.) would have been at least triple. And they were advertising these procedures as preventive. But who is going to read the results?

Aristartle · Jan 23, 2009

WalkerInTheWoods said:

You pay taxes don't you? If not someone is. I am sure the doctors are not working for free. Someone is paying for your health care.

It is like me saying I just paid $20 for an eye exam and two pairs of contact lenses a few years ago. The reality of it is that I had vision insurance that I wound up paying about $80 a year for. So really I paid $100 for that exam and contacts.

I am not attacking your health care system. I know very little about it. But when people say they have free health care (or that the government pays for it) the reality is that it is not free. Someone is paying for it.
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Um, yeah. The government picks up the tab. I'm like, aware who pays for my healthcare.

Where do you see that I said it was "free"?

Ugh. People.

Motion · Jan 24, 2009

America may one day have "universal healthcare" but it won't be the single-payer variety.

With 300 million Americans it would be a HUGE burden for the gov't to be the primary provider of healthcare for that many people. Plus the gov't would have to go through the time and trouble to remove ALL illegal immigrants in order to have a universal system so that they don't add an extra strain to the system. Then you have the issue of how to fund an expanded gov't run system with so many tax-paying baby boomers retiring. Whatever system America finally settles on it will more than likely continue to lean towards privatized services.

brax · Jan 25, 2009

Motion said:

America may one day have "universal healthcare" but it won't be the single-payer variety.

With 300 million Americans it would be a HUGE burden for the gov't to be the primary provider of healthcare for that many people. Plus the gov't would have to go through the time and trouble to remove ALL illegal immigrants in order to have a universal system so that they don't add an extra strain to the system. Then you have the issue of how to fund an expanded gov't run system with so many tax-paying baby boomers retiring. Whatever system America finally settles on it will more than likely continue to lean towards privatized services.
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propaganda, We pay more now per person get less coverage than any other developed country. single payer saves money it doesn't cost more. insurance companies are in the business of denying procedures people need not providing health care. we pay more get less.
peace
brax

Motion · Jan 25, 2009

^
This is why Americans are reluctant to go with a full single-payer system.

Wait times for surgery in Canada at all-time high: study

Aristartle · Jan 25, 2009

Motion said:

^
This is why Americans are reluctant to go with a full single-payer system.

Wait times for surgery in Canada at all-time high: study
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Hahaha. The Fraser Institute? The think tank Stephen Harper sucks off?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_institute

Some 'independent' study that was. Bahahaha.

Motion · Jan 25, 2009

^
I was gonna add this one to.

Robertson defends hospital waiting lists - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Aristartle · Jan 25, 2009

Quotes from Wikipedia about Canadian Medicare:

As analysts have noted, the root of the concern may be traced to successful cost control efforts in the mid 1990s, where public health expenditure per capita, in inflation-adjusted dollars, actually fell.[14] These efforts arose from efforts by the federal government to deal with its deficit, which led to cuts in their transfers to the provinces, and in turn to squeezing hospital budgets and physician reimbursements. The number of physicians being trained was reduced. The result was seen in increased wait times, particularly for elective procedures. More recently, government has been reinvesting in health care, but public confidence has been slow to recover.

A number of studies have compared Canada with other countries, and concluded that each system has its own strengths and weaknesses.[15] [16] One widely-cited statistic which has been used to argue that Canada was under-performing came from the World Health Organization, which ranked Canada as 30th in 2000. However, the basis for these rankings has been highly contentious. As Deber noted, "The measure of "overall healthsystem performance" derives from adjusting "goal attainment" for educational attainment. Although goal attainment is in theory based on five measures (level and distribution of health, level and distribution of "responsiveness" and "fairness of financial contribution"), the actual values assigned to most countries, including Canada, were never directly measured. The scores do not incorporate any information about the actual workings of the system, other than as reflected in life expectancy. The primary reason for Canada's relatively low standing rests on the relatively high educational level of its population, particularly as compared to France, rather than on any features of its health system."[17] Other countries had similar complaints, and the WHO has not repeated this ranking.

...

The debate about health care has also become heavily ideological. The Fraser Institute, a think tank supporting "competitive market solutions for public policy problems" is a frequent critic of medicare. It publishes yearly reports about wait times which are then used to argue that the system is both failing and unsustainable.[20] Others criticize their methodology, which is based on physician perceptions rather than actual waits. [21] Other complaints come from the political left, who object to 'privatization' (by which they usually mean a heavier involvement of for-profit providers). (See, for example, the Canadian Health Coalition web page. [22] There are frequent debates in the media and on line between advocates and opponents of Canadian healthcare.

...

Common complaints relate to access, usually to elective surgery (especially hip and knee replacement and cataract surgery) and diagnostic imaging. These have been the primary targets of health care reinvestment, and it appears that considerable progress has been made for certain services, although the implications for procedures not on the target list are unclear. [23] [24] [25] Canadian physicians have been heavily involved, particularly in developing appropriateness criteria to ensure timely access for necessary care.[26] It is estimated to have cost Canada's economy $14.8 billion in 2007 to have patients waiting longer than needed for medical procedures.[27]

...

American opinion on Canadian medicare tends to be non-neutral, either supportive as in the preceding paragraph and therefore desirable within the USA, or negative and not desirable. Opinions not supportive of medicare put forth issues such as wait times and budget cuts having severely impaired the Canadian healthcare system, to the point where Canadian mothers have to go to the U.S. to deliver because of lack of room and nurses for premature babies in some Canadian hospitals. [34]
In 2003, the Government in Canada spent $2,998 USD per capita on healthcare as compared to $5,711 USD per capita in the United States, while almost every Canadian citizen is fully covered.[35] In the United States a high percentage of the population is uncovered or only marginally covered, despite higher proportional spending along with large private investment. Even more people are just a job loss away from not having coverage (although in most cases the employer must maintain health care with copayment of the patient for a period of time after employment in the United States has gone down not up).

The lack of competition has given healthcare unions a monopoly on essential services, thus ensuring a very strong bargaining position. Nova Scotia is currently debating healthcare legislation aimed at removing the threat of striking healthcare workers and replacing it with binding arbitration.[36]

...

One proposed solution for improving the Canadian healthcare system is to increase funding. Proponents of this approach point to[citation needed] the rise of neo-conservative economic policies in Canada and the associated reduction in welfare state expenditure (particularly in the provinces) from the 1980s onwards as the cause of degradation in the system. In fact, there is evidence[citation needed] that the percentage of total government expenditures spent on healthcare has been increasing, in part due to a higher percentage of older Canadians.

Other critics of healthcare state[citation needed] that increased funding will not solve systematic problems in the healthcare system including a rising cost of medical technology, infrastructure, and wages. These critics say[citation needed] that Canada's proximity to the United States causes a "brain drain" or migration of Canadian-trained doctors and nurses (as well as other professionals) to the United States, where private hospitals can pay much higher wages and income tax rates are lower (partially because health care is not covered through taxation). Some of these critics[citation needed] argue that increased privatization of healthcare would improve Canada's health infrastructure. Others[37] argue vehemently against it.

Critics of the systematic reform approach state[citation needed] that healthcare should be kept public, (public in funding only, as most services are provided by the private sector including doctors who in most cases are private corporations) in part because it separates Canadians from Americans by mandating equality and fairness in health care. Truth is that the system is not a true public system, as in Italy, where doctors are on a per capita salary. The Canadian Health care system is merely publicly funded, which most Canadians appreciate and desire.[citation needed] Making the system a true public system is an alternative to the current half public, half private system.
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brax · Jan 25, 2009

Motion has bought into the corporate/media hype. Canada has lower infant mortality, longer average lifespan, pays less per person. covers everyone including non citizens. Yet somehow he feels paying corporations to deny medical care is a better system.
peace
brax

Motion · Jan 26, 2009

^
All that is more complicated in America. First I've read several other Canadian news articles related to Canada's waiting list problems that have nothing to do with that Fraser group.

One reason infant mortality is higher in America is because for still undiscovered reasons it's higher among Black women. Plus other factors that don't have much to do with healthcare play a part in American's lifespan.

For unknown reasons, the number of preterm births is far higher among African-American women even when those women have access to good medical care, Dr. D'Alton said.

Turner blamed socioeconomic factors like obesity, high drug use, violence with guns and car accidents — factors that she said cannot be addressed by health reform.

Infant deaths decline in U.S. - International Herald Tribune
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gardener · Jan 27, 2009

Motion said:

^

One reason infant mortality is higher in America is because for still undiscovered reasons it's higher among Black women. Plus other factors that don't have much to do with healthcare play a part in American's lifespan.
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I think those reasons are pretty well explained and would be impacted by a health care system similar to that of Canada's.

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2007/ColorDivideinInfantMortality.aspx

Despite continued improvements in the health of the African American population, black babies are still nearly 2.5 times more likely than white babies to die before reaching their first birthday. To make matters worse, recent data show rising infant mortality among blacks in some states.

Infant mortality is associated with a variety of factors that include socioeconomic status, mother’s age, nutrition, birth weight, and lack of prenatal care. Recent increases in black infant mortality also coincide with significant cuts in programs designed to assist the poor and an erosion of benefits in jobs held by many poverty-level workers.
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Single-Payer National Health

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Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

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