i laugh at the idea of humans obtaining godlike qualities

you see i know this girl who tells me i can be a god
but i laugh at the fact envisioning myself walking on water
all we can do as humans is turn glass back to sand

and besides if one is honest

if i can be a god, then with my general habitual patterns of thinking
due to my being nothing besides a member of a confused intelligent species, i am only going want something more than being god if i get to that point

imperfection is not godlike, and i don't see humans as being anything
special besides the determined bunch of chemicals in our brains that make us feel (emotion) , and the ability we have to use our thumbs, humans are humans because of imperfections, we will never be anything else, it's a delusion of grandeur to think otherwise

 

God like qualities....like consciousness?

Your problem, is when you think of god like qualities, like creating things from nothing, omnipotence, etc, you are think of false god qualities, not the qualities that make gods gods in the first place. Gods are not perfect either. You take christian ideas, and use them as your basis to argue against animistic ideas...and that sets you up for failure to understand. The bindings and limitations of christian understanding are the first things you should loose in order to see what is meant by godlike qualities.

But you are right, because I am a human, a beast given the gift of godmind, I can only be a human....but being a human means much more than you seem to understand.

 

i'm sorry i was ranting, emotion got in the mix, i consider myself slightly a poet, it confuses me

what i understand is that humans don't have the ability of consciousness, if that is what you call it, but it has nothing to do with a religious experience, the whole problem relies upon mankind, for over five thousand years we have been controlled, everything we do habitually, everything we think habitually, is not our choice

my belief is that this search, which in all terms and aspects is the exact same thing as your search, i'm just in different circumstances,so what i call it, what i want to find is individuality, you want to find a conscious above your normal state, it's the same thing in a round about way

individuality comes when one recognizes why they are doing the things they are doing, it's a look at inner self, and the only way to understand the world is to understand yourself, it's just i don't believe, due to my basic upbringing, which you pointed out, that i could ever leap over that boundary which would lead me to some spiritual moment, but i understand that humanity is sad, they are all lonely, and it never changes, it hasn't ever changed, besides momentary bits of distraction that end up being sucked right back into the flow of things, history repeats

the only way that i could ever dream about being an individual is to erase anything that makes me biased, which as i am a human being becomes quite a problem due to it's impossiblity, which creates the sadness




your idea of consciousness is the same as my idea of individuality in that we are both searching for something, it's not a matter of who is right or who is wrong, it's a matter of impossiblity on anyone's level


everyone is looking for something, and when they forget what they were looking for, or get to distracted they lose it, you can understand that, i say that's when you stop living

so the point isn't about obtaining anything, it's about trying

cause even if it is impossible, life will be maybe easier, maybe more enjoyable, but pointless, unless you keep trying to find whatever you're looking for

and yes i agree that everyone is looking for something different, it's just there is a lot of people that are looking for the same thing as you, and there are a lot that won't ever dream of doing it, a search should never make you special though, that is the downfall to mankind, there are so many that are looking for something, it's just no one finds it, you get close, but it's impossible, it's a sad world, but on the bright side, i believe conformity has been on the upswing lately, you are what's around you, and the world is getting closer, more understanding

and remember when i am typing this, it's from a western cultured male point of view, so i'm basing all these assumptions from my personal perspective, which means individuality or the way to go about it, would be almost completely irrelevant to most people

my plea then would be to look for why you are you,
ask why did you lie right there, what were you afraid of,
why do you like blue or green,
or why you're good at scrabble or soduku,
why is this the third person today with that shirt, and why aren't you wearing it,
why do you do drink coffee, or enjoy riding a bike,
why do you like both brunettes and blondes, but can't stand a combination,

why do you do anything, and if you're honest, you'll piece who you are, or who you were set up to be more so, and then you can go from there, as you knowing you

 

I am a Fatalist....I can only answer your questions in that sense...and I do not think that will satisfy your questioning. It challenges choice and individuality, and I think you are seeking to find just the opposite of that.

 

"If we have the ability to make love and feel love.... well I like to think that means the universe is on our side" - Wayne Coyne

 

that is true, but i still consider myself a moderate determinist, individuality is about understanding how fate isn't fate, it's just a bunch of numbers that predetermines who you are, the thing is is that individuality and true choice is impossible, that is where i agree with a fatalist, but in order to actually live, you've got to try to break from it, a good intro is kafka's "the castle", as long as you get past the existential bullshit

 

You think of Fate as predetermined. Predestination is the past being pulled to a set point in the future, where as Fate is the past pushing you towards a point of infinite potential, a potential made up entirely of that same past.

 

sorry, a misrepresentation, i see the difference, fate, you must sleep pretty well

 

jared34ricky, you are very correct from a Jungian standpoint when you say that both you and Heron are seeking the same thing. Jung saw individuation as that ultimate goal of mankind----the becoming of a wholly unique inidividual. But paradoxically he related this to the end goal of religion, and of course he was fascinated with the eastern religions, so he saw one becoming a buddha, for example, as one becoming individuated.

I have trouble reconciling this because I see becoming a wholly unique individual on the opposite end of the spectrum from letting yourself become one with the universe. But opposite ends always come together on the far opposite side.

From a Jungian standpoint, the ego is that aspect of our psyche that filters into our conscious mind everything that the ego decides is relevant to who the ego determines we are as an indivdiual. In reality we have so much more memories, experiences, intuitions, etc. etc. but this is all part of our unconscious mind and is filtered out by our ego. Likewise we are so much more aware of our universe and the things happening around us, but so much of this too, is filtered out and simply ends up in the unconscious mind.

The mystical sides of religion, most obvious from the Eastern traditions, seeks to break down the ego. This may come accross as breaking down who we are as individuals. And I think the religious indoctrination that is part of this process (the dogma and dharma--which try to be opposites, but in practice are the same thing) tends to paint a picture that we should give up ourselves to blend in with the universe---and hence taints the experience of enlightnement in this light. In reality what it is doing is enabling us to achieve more access to the unconscious mind. (And as an animist I would add that it is through the unconscious mind that we are connected to the spirit worlds).

Seeking to become an indidvidual in a society built on individualistic ethics and ideals, does the same thing. As you try to learn more about yourself, who you are, what you really like, really believe in, etc. It forces you to dig deeper into your unconscious. In fact most of us do this anyway as we move through life from infancy to old age. Some go further down this path than others. But what happens is that we breakdown some the ego's filtering process to enable more of our unconscious contents to come to conscious awareness. In both cases, we become more whole as we understand more of our unconscious mind.

Jung has labelled such figures as Jesus or Siddhartha (Buddha) as examples of the highly individuated individuals. Is it impossible to achieve godlike states? Read up on the research funded by the Menninger institute on the Medicine Man, Rolling Thunder, and on an Eastern Mystic whose name I forget----they had what could only be called superhuman abilities---in a laboratory situation, the Eastern Mystic was able to change his body temperature, and to even be able to stop the blood flow in his arm for example, and numerous other things (I am writing this from memory so please excuse me if I don't have the facts complete). Even I, myself (a great skeptic), have witnessed some miraculous healings done by shamans. My own stepdaughter is one example.

But is that neccessarily our purpose in life---is to all become gods? Our purpose is to live life, and experience. And part of that experience is the search itself, and I think that can be a source of real fulfillment.

Are we destined to always repeat the same mistakes? I work in the stockmarket and am often teaching chart reading to clients. When we talk about using the fibbonacci sequence, I always joke that here is mathematical proof that our lives are predestined without free-will. When you draw retracement lines based on the fibbonacci sequence, stock prices always tend to find support and resistance on these lines---it is like magic. (The fibbonacci sequence was created by an Italian mathematician centuries and centries ago. He said that this sequence explains life, and in fact you will notice that sea shells, trees, mountians, everything in nature, tends to grow at the rate of the Fibbonacci sequence). But can we predict the future with the Fibbonacci numbers? No. Fibbonace retracement will tell us key areas of support and reisistance on a stock price, and where we would expect it to retrace too. But it will not predict the future of that stock price.

Life is filled with cycles and rythms, and yes they tend to make us repeat history. But nothing ever happens the same way. Society grows, humans achieve new levels of understanding, including spiritual. And society as well becomes more individuated with the passing of time. With all the inhumanities today, I would rather live today than deal with al the inhumanities of the 1600's, or even the 100's. We will have hard times and good times---and while each one may be similar to the past, each one is also different. So it is possible for us to have a great, and highly individuated future.

What you said at the end of your last entry is very true----you have to be true to yourself. That is the real key. You cannot continue the process of individuation without being true to yourself.

But, and this goes back to Heron's first response, I think the most sacred event in our lifetimes is that of birth. Passing through the birth canal is the same thing as the divine essence passing through the tree of life, the celestial axis----the portal from the spirit world to ours. Symbolically, the birth canal is the tree of life, the celestial axis, the axis mundi----actually it is a manifestation of that, as is the grave. The language of the spirit world is symbolism. So I would say to you that the fact that you were born onto this earth makes you sacred and godlike, as it does for every other living thing. The choice is yours what you do with that.

 

very well said indeed!

 

Does the individual focus his individuality upon a shema, or does a person focus his personality upon that schema?

The schemata are realized in the nature by nature coming to be the HUMAN Nature. Therefore it would accordingly seem that that it was the person primarily without any aid of intuition from the sciences, without any aid of feeling-looked-at from the heart of createdness who chooses the anxious anticipation for the pattern of existence in the otherness of that basic human involvement.

Life seems to demand the person not to be part of the solved scientific ideal of all those increased intelligent life forms.

Instinct may be undevelopable to being unique as much as We remain in our faculty of reason.

 

I would respond that instinct cannot be developed, butI question it's uniqueness---it is buried in the unconscious and whatever is not genetic is composed of the memories of the collective unconscious going all the way back to man's primal ancestors. (I am not sure whether I can believe that memories, and experiences, can evolve into genetic structures of the mind, but I find it a fascinating concept, alternatively the collective unconscious could be the infinitie knowledge of the universe, which the deepest corners of our psyche are able to tap into, or it could be that unexplainable 6th sense which we must all connect to in a deep part of our psyche). These instinctual memories communicate with our own conscious mind, as much as the ego allows, through the archetypes.

On a human level the 'act of nature coming to be Human Nature' is both a process of genetic evolution, and the acquisition of the memories and experiences that have created this human collective unconscious. That brings us up to each of our individual moments of birth. From that point of birth individuality is determined by: 1.) our every experience of interacting with our environment and everyone in it, 2.) Our every choice. 3.) our individual interpretations of what gets filtered from our unconscious, the archetypes, the collective unconscious, and so forth. And, 4.) our perceived influences from, and interpretations of the divine, and/or spirit world---whether true or not---is still a very subjective experience and therefore affects our individuality. Perhaps through this process of creating our own unique individualties, through our choices, interpretations, and experiences, we in turn add to the collective unconscious of our descendants.

Even without the heart of createdness, can we really escape that true feeling of being looked at? I think not, for that is incorporated into the archetypes and the collective unconscious of our psyche. Even if there was no other being, we are still subject to the genetic or archetypical judgements and ethics internalized from our ancestors via the collective unconscious. But it is how we choose to act going forward that determines our individuality.

In Jungian terms, the more fully individuated we become, the more wholly uniqe we become. And likewise, the more individuality is reflected in our personality. But even in people who lack individuality, those who are plastic, or controlled by their egos, or are mindless sheep---their personalities are still unique to them---in the end, personality is merely a reflection of the indviduality, even if it is poorly developed.

 

the polar shift is changing. and the holy bible proposes the idea of light ascension. i will prove his existence with my life as i belive i cant die. untill then i will testify for the lord as i will become the missing link of our time.

 

i laugh at no idea, though i see many poorly delineated as a result of intellectual laziness and sloppiness.

most humans have no idea the scale of what they're talking about, yet there are many "god-like" qualities we commonly come unexpectedly close to.

 

"God-like" is a matter of subjectivity. I'm sure we are more god-like to the squirrel in the back yard than to eachother, much less god-like to existentially questionable 'higher beings.'

I think we can become god-like, and many have. George Washington is god-like in my opinion, his reputation is divine. Michelangelo, another god-like person. I also agree with MVW in that their level of individualism must have been crucial to their becoming god-like.

This makes sense in a way, because the more individuated w become, the more unique we come, the less like others we become, therefore the more valuable we become. The value of anything is based on how much of it is available.

 

what i love about the diversity of the universe, maybe even multiverses, its unaffectedness by what humans choose to believe or imagine to be limits of the possible. just as its diversity is not hampered by other tyrannies, but rather frustrates and irritates them.