Israel is the opium of the people, and other Arab taboos

Jews don't need their own state. Judaism is a religion. Jews are followers of that religion.

Religious states are nothing but trouble.


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Oy. This thread has become almost intolerable for me.

Israelis are a nation. They deserve to have a state just as much as a Palestinian, Georgian, or a Navajo and be represented under law and permitted to create their own constitutions, currencies, diplomacy, judicial systems and educational systems.

 

Well, I do agree that states based on ethnicity or religion are nothing but trouble. I don't care if they are Jewish, Palestinian or what.

States are secular, political entities- it's not a fucking tribe.

 

Dude, you've just described a text-book case of imperialism.

Have you read up on the Berlin Conference and the partition of Africa in 1901? It's your post with different location names- minus the U.N. (which Pavel claims he doesn't need).

And yes, imperialism is complex. It always has been- it's always given itself justifications and token concessions to the natives. And once you move in, of course you have to "defend yourself" because no native is going to give you land they previously occupied on a platter.

The basic facts remain: This is a foreign population, backed by superior western powers, taking possession of land previously occupied by non-Europeans.

The fact that Jews were persecuted during WWII makes the story slightly different. But there were many many other persecuted groups (including in WWII) throughout history who did not "need" their own ethnically/religiously-bound state for survival.

Edit: I have read about the 6 Days War of 1967, rest assured. :cheers2:

 

Israel is a "Jewish" state, remember? Jews are followers of a religion, NOT a "people".

That makes Israel a religious state. Jews are given special privileges over non Jews. That makes Israel an apartheid state.

Israel is engaged in genocide against it's Muslim population. That makes Israel a terrorist state.


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So? USA is the "In God We Trust" state, it's not any more or less secular than the Israeli state. That makes USA a religious state. Everyone who lives in the USA that are Christians are given special privileges over non Christians. That makes the USA an apartheid state also, by your logic.

The USA is engaged in genocide against its non Christian population. Just look at gay-hate, black-hate, women's rights hate. That makes the USA a terrorist state.

Honestly, you've taken an extremist attitude to the situation, spun it around to take your views to a one-sided issue and demonized human beings. What is your rationality behind that?

The people of Israel belong to a state, whether they are Muslim or Jewish or Christian is irrelevant. Families have relatives, loved ones and co-workers on both sides of the divide here. It's not like all Israelis are Jewish or that the Israeli Constitution is governed by Jewish laws and customs. No, their Constitution is a piece of state legislature.

Israelis are followers of Israel. Which has little to do with Judaism.

 

Thats not what their policies reflect. Jew only roads, Jew only settlements, etc.

I don't make any excuses for the US. If you're familar with me, you know I trash my own country just as bad as I do Israel.

Do you know why?

Because many of the things I was brought up to believe about the United States has been a lie. Israel is a lie too.

To say I'm more hurt than angry would be accurate. If I was angry, I'd be in Gaza planning my next move. But because I'm just hurt, I'll leave the US someday.

Let the rest of you lay in the bed with the harlot of the Middle East, Israel.



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They were a religion, until the 2nd world war where they were treated as a nation. Jews who converted to Christianity or were secular were still killed by the people of Europe.

These sort of exaggerations just make your case look immature . Had Israel really wanted to kill the Palestinians it could have done that easily. Israel has a superior military , if they want to they can kill thousand of civilians in a few minutes. The reason the superior Israeli army doesn't beat the Palestinian forces is because its doing its best to avoid civilian casualties.

There is plenty to criticize Israel on, there is no need to invent stuff

 

Terrorist is just a silly name. But there is absolutely no doubt the U.S. is NOT an equitable society bent on social justice.

 

Not doing a great job of it are they?

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_4186.shtml

 

You call what they did to Lebanon peace?

And as to your blue quote: What happenned to Rabin. Wasn't he assasinated by an Israeli extremist?

Some truth about Hamas, interesting article...a little old but offers some historical/objectivity:

http://www.mafhoum.com/press/52P5.htm

 

In 2006 Israel responded to attacks by Hezbolla. It was not an attack on Lebanon nor did the Lebanese military take part in the conflict.

Paramilitary combatants chose to attack Israel from Lebanon and Israel responded in the only manner at it's disposal. Do you think a UN resolution ordering Hezbolla to stop shelling Israel would have any effect? "In the time since the enactment of UNSCR 1701 both the Lebanese government and UNIFIL have stated that they will not disarm Hezbollah."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War

As to the Rabin exclusion, I also excluded the assasintion of Anwar Sadat by Islamic extremist following his historic signing of a peace deal with Israel.
I think the exclusion of both were on balance, fair.

I do think Israel has been heavy handed in this incursion the loss of innocent life has been tragic. I do think they ought to move quickly towards a ceasefire. But on the question of whether Israel has a right to defend it's citizens when attacked from outside it's borders/ They most certainly do.

 

Was there one? So in your mind Israel wages peace with Lebanon by bombing them back ten years, and recently for shelling them during this conflict?

I mourned Sadat's death. But one death never balances the loss of another, especially at the hands of a religious zealot, in the case of Rabin a Jew. Isn't that what this entire mess is about. 17 Israeli deaths compared to 700+ Palestinians and climbing? Also Rabin was a Nobel Peace Prize winner for his work with coordinating peace with the Palestinians, directly related to this conflict.

No one has the right to murder another. States can't sanction that much as politicians would like to think so.

 

gardner, you obviously know very little about history

in the past a military empire conquered another country by going in , killing a large percentage of the local population and raping as many women as possible. Other techniques included, conscripting the local population to form a militia, public executions and so on. If the local population showed more signs of rebellion they will kill more civilians. This was done by going into villages and towns and publicly executing random people.
In the 20th century people in the West realize just how horrible a system this is and made rules against it.
Of course there is no way to avoid killing some civilians during a war. Even if you employ "smart" bombs and tons of army intelligence. Again, Israel's army is vastly superior to Hamas. If Israel really wanted to target civilians - it could have killed them in a rate of thousands a minute.
Why is it that the superior American army lost Vietnam and Iraq? The same Army that beat the Japanese and the Germans ,couldn't beat the Iraqis? The reason is simple ,they avoid civilians. I promise you that had America played by old school rules - killing thousand of innocent civilians ,they would have had Iraq quiet in less than a month. Of course , I'm happy that Western countries are not killing civilians by principal. I suggest you have a look at how war was fought in the past or how it fought in places like Africa , you will understand what "target civilians" mean. Israel does not target civilians .

 

nicely put.