I did not want to disrupt an ongoing thread so thought i would start another seperate one.. Jaz Delorean matthew Jaz Delorean lozi Peppy I only got told the interpretation i said, a few week ago so don't realy know a lot about it...but its quite intresting looking into it, and only scarey if you wish Lozi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ROMAN+EMPIRE+REVELATION This essay is free for distribution in any manner, with the provision that it remains completely intact, with his notice, the author's name and the full text of the essay. Any comments are gratefully welcomed. Copyright 1996. INTRODUCTION Over the last 1900 years, four primary understandings of the Book of Revelation have developed - the Idealist, Preterist, Historicist and Futurist viewpoints. These understandings are distinct with their own notable characteristics. Horton believes that part of the reason for this incompatible variety stems from whether the hermeneutics employed tend to interpret the Bible more literally or figuratively (Horton, 1994, p. 619). As will be explained however, there are stronger reasons for the variety, which pertain to one's objectivity. IDEALIST The Idealist believes simply that Revelation does not refer to any historical or future event at all; rather it is a timeless allegory of the conflict between good and evil (Stern, 1992, p. 784) - a description of the spiritual principles of God that equip one for spiritual battles, which constantly confront the Church (Goswiller, n.d., p. 5). This view originated with the Alexandrian School of Theology represented by Clement and Origen, who (consistent with their other teachings) taught that the "true spiritual interpretation" of the book could only be discovered through an allegorical interpretation (Goswiller, n.d., p. 5; Wilson, n.d., p. 15). Nevertheless, though the book does have many symbolic figures, they all represent realities. The Antichrist is called a beast, but he will be a real person and will fulfill plain statements given in other prophecies (such as II Thessalonians 2:3-12). Jesus must personally come to bring about the final triumph (Horton, 1994, p. 619). The Idealist view does not appear to have much serious support, its deficiencies being apparent. Morris (1980, p. 1338) states, "The difficulty is that the seer does claim to be prophesying of later days". Wilson (n.d., p. 6) writes, "The results of this method were not satisfactory, for each interpreter understood the symbols and figures according to his own ideas". Jensen (1981, p. 498) goes as far as to claim that this view is anemic. PRETERIST The Preterist view derives its name from the Latin word praeter meaning "past". It attempts to relate all of Revelation except for the very end to events in the first century, with Rome and its early emperors, particularly Nero, being the only principals (Horton, 1994, p. 619). Kenneth Gentry (n.d.) sustains this position by appealing to 1:9 ("I John, who also am your brother, and companion in the tribulation") as evidence that "the" tribulation was a reality in John's time (although most translations do not render the verse this way). Gentry continues, citing the continual warnings, "He that has an ear, let him hear" (Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22) as evidence that the events of Revelation were taking place in that day. Gentry further appeals to Revelation 17 where a vision of the seven-headed beast is recorded, verses 9 and 10 explaining, Here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh he must continue a short space. Gentry (n.d.) proceeds to explain that the seven mountains represent the famous seven hills of Rome. The seven heads also have a political reference, being simultaneously seven kings. Gentry states, It surely is no accident that Nero was the sixth emperor of Rome. Flavius Josephus, the Jewish contemporary of John, clearly points out that Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome and that he was followed in succession by Augustus, Tiberius, Caius, Claudius, and, sixthly, Nero (Antiquities, books 18 and 19). Gentry next enlists the aid of the number of the Beast from Revelation 13:18 to prove "Nero and Nero alone fits the bill as the specific or personal expression of the Beast" (Gentry, n.d.), stating A Hebrew spelling of Nero Caesar's name was Nrwn Qsr. . . . It has been documented by archaeological finds that a first century Hebrew spelling of Nero's name provides us with precisely the value of 666. Although Preterists believe that the last two chapters of Revelation pertain to the future (Jensen, 1981, p. 498), the essence of their position is that the events of Revelation arose out of conditions in the Roman empire of the 1st century AD. The seer was appalled at the possibilities for evil inherent in the Roman empire and he used symbolic imagery to protest against it, and to record his conviction that God would intervene to bring about what pleased him (Morris, 1980, p. 1338). Nevertheless, despite Gentry's firm belief, one must conclude that the Preterist position is untenable. It overlooks the fact that the book calls itself a prophecy (1:3). Mickelsen finds fault with the Preterist understanding of the mark of the Beast, stating, Nero Caesar in Hebrew letters comes out right if the consonants are NRWN QSR. But in the Talmud the word Caesar is spelled QYSR. If this is adopted, the total numerical value comes to 676. In Greek, of course, no form of Nero Caesar comes to 666 (Mickelsen, 1963, p. 202; also Morris, 1980, p. 1338). Finally, the Preterist view is highly dependant on Revelation having been written before 70 A.D., yet the evidence for a 95/96 A.D. date is overwhelming (Goswiller, n.d., p. 3), Irenaeus even explicitly stating that John wrote the book during Domitian's reign (Glasson, 1965, p. 8; Morris, 1980, p. 1338). HISTORICIST The Historicist view of Revelation attempts to map the events described in the book to historical events, providing a panorama of the history of the Church from the days of John to the end of time (Ryrie, 1978, p. 1785). Thomas Foster (1983, p. 8), co-founder of the Christian Revival Crusade, sees the seven Churches in chapters two and three of Revelation as being an overview of the entire Church age (which many Futurists would also believe). Chapters four to 19 of Revelation are claimed to be a more in-depth view of Church history, with the Millennium being described in chapter 20. According to Foster (1983, p. 123), "the Millennium proper commences about 2000 A.D." although the Laodicean period finished in 1967 (Foster, 1983, p. 18) with the six-day war in Israel. Foster's views are strongly anti-Catholic. The beast worship of Revelation 13 is related to allegiance to the Papal Empire in 533 B.C (Foster, 1983, p. 68). The mark of the beast is the Latin language (lateinus having the value 666) which is significant because Pope Vitallian issued a decree commanding the exclusive use of Latin in all services of the Catholic Church in 666 A.D. (Foster, 1983, p. 74-75). Further, the battle of Armageddon is claimed to be nothing more than Russian Communism challenging Britain and the USA for supremacy (Foster, 1983, p. 94), Britian and the USA having replaced Israel, and Communism being related to Roman Catholicism. This view is fraught with complications – its interpretations are subjective and internally inconsistent. Foster, for example, believes that the 42 months of blasphemies by the beast refers to 1260 years of Papal power from 606 A.D. to 1866 A.D. (Foster, 1983, p. 68). Nevertheless, the closest Foster can come to a historical event for this is the capturing of Rome by Italy in 1870 (Foster, 1983, p. 89). One must also question the hermeneutic involved in "a day stands for a year" (Foster, 1983, p. 55) used to achieve certain dates in this scheme. Further, Morris (1980, p. 1338) states, "It is difficult to see why the outline of history should confine itself to W[estern] Europe, especially since in earlier days at least much of the expansion of Christianity was in E[astern] lands." Finally, Historicist adherers tend to continually rework the whole interpretation to come out in their own generation (Horton, 1994, p. 619; Morris, 1980, p. 1338). This has been the case with Historicists in the past and undoubtedly certain of Foster's dates would now be different. FUTURIST Although the three views given above may entail some recognition of predictive prophecy in Revelation, not one of them permit Eschatological derivations to be made. The fourth manner in which Revelation may be understood is the Futurist viewpoint, which views most of the book (chapters 4 - 22) as prophecy yet to be fulfilled. Ryrie (1978, p. 1785) believes this to be the only logical interpretation if one is to interpret the text plainly. Similarly, Walvoord states that the Futurist (in particular, pre-millenial, pre- tribulationism) viewpoint is the only one which most literally follows scripture under "consistent and proper hermeneutics" (Walvoord, 1978, p. 270). Nevertheless, the Futurist viewpoint itself contains a number of variant views. The seven Churches in chapters two and three, for example, may be seen in a Preterist manner (that is, relating solely to the Church in the first century) or a Historicist manner (that is, reflecting the history of the Church). Yonggi Cho, for example, holds to the latter view, with the Laodecian Church reflecting the Church from 1905 until the Tribulation (Cho, 1991, p. 47). The most reasonable view, however, is the Characteristic Interpretation where the letters, while still written to physical Churches in John's day, present a picture of the continuous conditions of the Church throughout history - that is, at any given time there will be an "Ephesian" Church, a "Laodicean" Church and so on (Goswiller, n.d., p. 13). Another area for consideration is the millennium, which has its basis in Revelation 20 - "He threw him [Satan] into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended" (20:3); "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (20:4, also 20:5, 7). "Millennium" means a thousand years, and Christian thought is divided into three categories over the millennium. Amillennialists believe that the millennium is not a literal period of time, rather the millennial kingdom is not future but is spiritual and is in progress at the present time. There is no distinction between the Church and Israel and Satan is actually bound now through the victory of Jesus at the cross and Christ reigns in the world in the hearts of his followers (Goswiller, n.d., p. 2). Post-millennialists believe that the millennium is a literal thousand year period, but in contrast to Revelation's chronological ordering, "Christ will have a spiritual reign which will last for 1,000 years. His second coming follows the thousand year reign" (Goswiller, n.d., p. 2). A flaw in post-millennial thinking is that Christ's spiritual reign is to come about because "the present gospel message will root out all the evils of the world" (Goswiller, n.d., p. 2). This notion was first perpetuated by Augustine who claimed that the ever-increasing influence of the Church would overturn evil in the world before Christ's return (Zoba, 1995, p. 20). The Bible however indicates that the world's condition will worsen in the last days (I Timothy 4:1-3; II Timothy 3:1-5). During the Middle Ages the thought of a literal millennium was generally regarded as heretical (Berkhof, 1975, p. 263), but the faith of the early Church was undoubtedly chiliasm - an ill-defined pre-millennial outlook (Berkhof, 1975, p. 262; Zoba, 1995, p. 21) which anticipated Christ's literal thousand year reign after His Second Coming. Again, the Futurist viewpoint is divided over chapters four to 19. While all recognise the seven year Great Tribulation, the timing of the rapture is in dispute, the rapture being the "catching up" described in I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Corinthians 15:51-52. Post-tribulationists believe that the rapture occurs after the Tribulation. This means that the Church must endure the Tribulation, and Willmington (n.d., p. 825) dismises this view by appealing to I Thessalonians 5:9 ("For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ"). Mid- tribulationists believe that the rapture occurs midway through the Tribulation, and finally pre-tribulationists believe that the rapture occurs prior to the Tribulation. It is important to note that "only in relation to the premillennial position does the issue of when the rapture takes place arise; for Post- and Amillennialists, the rapture is vaguely identified with the Messiah's one and only return" (Stern, 1992, p. 623). To realise the time of the rapture one must recognise that the Tribulation is not merely a time of suffering or persecution (indeed, Christ said, "in this world you will have tribulation" in John 16:33). It is rather a time of God's wrath being outpoured on the earth. People will cry to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" (Revelation 6:16-17). Just as God delivered Noah and his family from God's wrath (Genesis 7:6-7) and Lot and his daughters (Genesis 19:14) and even the Israelites (Exodus 7:18; 8:3, 21-22; 9:3-4; 10:22-23; 11:6-7), so too the Church shall be saved from the coming Tribulation by the rapture - for the Church looks for "His Son from heaven who has delivered us from the wrath to come" (I Thessalonians 1:10). CONCLUSION Four (main) views of the Book of Revelation exist; obviously not all can be simultaneously correct. While pondering the area of modern-day miracles, former Dallas Theological Seminary professor, Jack Deere, made the conclusion, . . . . the majority of what Christians believe is not derived from their own patient and careful study of the Scriptures. The majority of Christians believe what they believe because godly and respected teachers told them it was correct. (Deere, 1993, p. 47). This is not necessarily negative, however. Many Christians believe in the deity of Jesus, for example, and believe the Scriptures teach this, but they could never defend His deity from the Scriptures, nor did they personally come to this belief through their own study of the Scriptures. It is part of the tradition that has been handed down to them by teachers. In this case, they benefit from tradition because this particular tradition is fully supported by Scripture. Nevertheless, for this reason, many notions have been propagated which are not Scripturally sound. Revelation should not be an overwhelming mystery. John wrote to reveal, not to conceal truth, "revelation" meaning an "opening up, uncovering" (Gentry, n.d.). The facts have been presented and conclusions may be drawn. Everyone is encouraged to read Revelation; a blessing is promised to those who persevere in its study - Blessed is he who reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand (Revelation 1:3). WORKS CITED Berkhof, L. 1975 (1937). The History of Christian Doctrines, Baker Book House, Michigan. Cho, P. Y. 1991. Revelation, Word Books, Milton Keynes. Deere, J. 1993. Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, Zondervan, Michigan. Foster, T. 1983. Amazing Book of Revelation Explained!, Crusade Centre, Victoria. Gentry, K. L. n.d. The Beast of Revelation Identified, Southern California Centre for Christian Studies, California. Glasson, T. F. 1965. The Revelation of John, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge. Goswiller, R. n.d. Revelation, Pacific Study Series, Melbourne. Horton, S. M. 1994. 'The Last Things', in Systematic Theology: A Pentecostal Perspective, ed. S. M. Horton, Logion Press, Springfield. Jensen, I. L. 1981. Jensen's Survey of the New Testament, Moody Press, Chicago. Mickelsen, A. B. 1963. Interpreting the Bible, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Michigan. Morris, L. L. 1980. 'Revelation, Book of', in The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, ed. F. F. Bruce, Inter-Varsity Press. Ryrie, C. 1978. The Ryrie Study Bible, Moody Press, Chicago. Stern, D. 1992. Jewish New Testament Commentary, Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc., Maryland. Walvoord, J. 1978. The Rapture Question, Zondervan, Michigan. Willmington, n.d. Willmington's Guide to the Bible, Pacific College Study Series, Melbourne. Wilson, C. n.d. The Book of Revelation, Pacific College Study Series, Melbourne. Zoba, W. 1995. 'Future Tense', Christianity Today, vol. 39, no. 11.
People in Noah's day didn't believe a flood of judgement was coming to the earth, and they spent their time in revelry, laughing at the crazy prophet who was preaching a vision. The Bible says, "They knew not until the flood came and took them all away." Jesus said men and women will likewise continue in sex sin, rebellion, violence, and immorality until the end of time. They will not accept visions or predictions of impending doom or judement (David Wilkerson). DO YOU ACCEPT THIS VISION OF AMERICA?... http://www.aarons-advocates.org/dum01.html The same thing this guy saw many other Christians are also seeing and it is congruent to what the Bible says!
Not being american i can't fully apreciate the situation in america. But talking about He showed me all of California and said, "This is Sodom and Gomorrah! All of this, in one day it will burn! Its sin has reached the Holy One." Then he took me to Las Vegas. "This is Sodom and Gomorrah. In one day it will burn." Then he showed me the state of New York. "Do you know what this is?" he asked. I said, "No." He said "This is New York [state]. This is Sodom and Gomorrah! In one day it will burn." Then he showed me all of Florida, "This is Florida." he said. "This is Sodom and Gomorrah! In one day it will burn." Then he took me back home to the rock where we had begun. "IN ONE DAY IT WILL BURN! All of this I have shown you" - I said, "How will it burn?" well i would ask 'why should it burn' is it beacuse of gay people..is it a metaphor for something else ? (Sodom and Gomorrah!). I don't believe that Noah built any ark !/ America is an empire, wich will ond day fall..just like the roman empire..I think possibly in 2 thousand years people will substitute the thought that revelation was about The roman empire and say it was about the American empire ?. Its strange you pick out america .. and not pick out any other nation in the world...to me that sort of proves the point that (possibly) revelation was talking about the end of a empire and not the world..i guess when an empire does fall, it does feel like the end of the world. If you have ever seen The Truman show, at the end after the whole world was focused on one thing and talked and concerned themselves with the every minutia of Truman (for my point America) they simply switched over and talked about something else. So i guess you focusing on America, i think says that America is the most important thing going on in the world today but when that empire falls another will rise.. and People that believe in the bible will again focus on the empire of the time and again forsee the end of the world pointed out by certain events in history..you never know maybe in 2 thousand years Christianity may have died out or progressed to the point well 'The end of the world scenarios are scoffed at' and the (possible) metophorical point of the Bible will be acepted .. I am a non believer (of any religeon/faith), so if i have said anything disrespectful then sorry.it just IMHO thats all.
I certainly hope in 2000 years people will have finally grasped the point that the end of th world will happen (everyone agrees on that one) but may have finally figured out that God wants us to concentrate on loving each other as much as we love him, so we can all try to make this world a better place... Sometimes i think those who focus on escatology are far too wrapped up in escapism!
After about 1900 years the Jews returned to Israel..... WE will see Christ's return! It has nothing to do with escapism.... because eventually all Christians are going to be living on earth again after the rapture.
The book of revalations was written about Rome. Any historian without religious bias will tell you that. It's pretty obvious. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/brevelation.html "Does John have, in Apocalypse, an attitude towards the imperial cult? Collins is a professor and serves as chair of the Department of New Testament and Early Christian Literature for the University of Chicago Divinity School. (more about Collins) John was different from many other Jews and Christians who kind of overlooked the pagan worship of the emperor and developed their own version of imperial cult, which was basically obedience, trying to be a good citizen in the Roman empire and praying for the emperor. John, on the other hand, took the position that Roman power was illegitimate and that the worship of the emperor was idolatry. The image of the Harlot of Babylon--in effect what he is saying is that Roma is not a goddess, she's a whore. That, I think, encapsulates his attitude, his very belligerent and pejorative perspective, on Rome and its institutions. In the prophetic books and the historical books of the Old Testament, Babylon is described primarily as the one who destroyed Jerusalem. And for John, writing after 70, Babylon then becomes a code name for Rome, because it was the second city to destroy the Temple. ... "Babylon" is the most common phrase that John uses to refer to Rome, and at first he introduces that term very briefly and indirectly. And the place where it's elaborated is Chapter 17, the vision of the Great Harlot. Babylon is a city with overtones of imperial might and destructiveness, conqueror of other cities. Then you have the harlot with her golden cup, her purple, or scarlet clothing, her jewels sitting on seven hills. He hints that it's Rome in several ways. One, that she sits on seven hills, and Rome was famous as the city of seven hills, and several times in chapters 13 and 17 it's talked about as ruling all the peoples of the earth. And there was only one possibility in John's time, that has to be Rome. ...
The bible states that when the Jews return to Israel and retake Jerusalem the generation that is alive at that time will not pass away until all end time bible prophecies will be fulfilled. Another words Israel became a nation in 1948, the generation born in 1948 will not pass away untill everything is fulfilled. America is spoken of in the bible in about 3 chapters. America has about 30 years left. According to the bible all of America's cities will be destroyed by northern nations and Americas end will come in one hours time.
According to your correct or incorrect (depending upon God's will) interpretation of the bible and God's will. Of course all the drama queens are hoping for a big, dramatic, flaming catastrophy, and some dumbasses reject God because of the drama queens words being claimed to be prophecy from God. Damn false prophets, why did God make you?
WOW, you should spend a little more time reading your bible. The prophecies of the bible are happening right now and you think that was only for johns day. Just one battle described by John has 200 million men fighting in the middle east. I'm not sure back in Johns day if the whole world even had 200 million people. In another chapter it states that whole cities would be destroyed in one hours time. The bible also states that at the end of time the Jews would be back in Israel and they would control Jerusalem. The bible also states that the east gate that leads to the old temple mount would be sealed which it is. It also states that the Jewish occupation of Israel would be the whole focus of world attention. I think there is a little more to this than what you have stated.
If the book of Revelation had been written about Rome, then the end of Revelation would have been played out, and it hasn't. The antichrist has not yet revealed himself, the mark is here, but it is not yet being forced upon the world, etc. The revival of the Roman Empire is something to look for, however.
Well, the revival is right under our noses. Look at our Courtrooms, Laws, City layouts, etc. we're it.
