Israel rains fire on Gaza with phosphorus shells

The question was:
You mean there are still people out there who think war can be justified? ...



I am glad we can agree for once.

 

Three.

How many wars have you been in?

 

The Merkava uses a 120mm cannon, a 120mm high explosive shell has about a 200 foot blast radius. The blast wave can knock down walls and the shrapnel can pierce cement and steel. WP doesn't have much of a blast radius because it is not a high exlosive round, its more of a 'burst' than a blast. WP cannot pass through anything. Hence HE is much more dangerous for civilians in an urban environment.

 

I don't believe that anyone was disputing this fact.

The concern for myself, is that clearly the Israeli armies have been using WP, but have yet to publicly disclose this fact.

Actually, UN Aid in Gaza has been suspended due to a culmulating direct fire from Israel troops on UN Aid convoys and food cargo personnel. UN Aid is unable to operate safely and deliver desperately needed humanitarian services to the people of Gaza because of the ineptitude or lack of adherence to the Geneva Convention by Israel.

Hopefully, they can co-ordinate their schedules more appropriately and continue to deliver humanitarian assistance to people. But the Israeli army needs to either escort UN Aid convoys to the regions where they just dropped bombs or stop firing and co-ordinate schedules to allow UN Aid to do their job.

 

It appears the Israelis are targetting civilian homes and apartments, hospitals, UN schools and morques.

 

If it's anything like Lebanon, they will coordinate so that they can aim their ordinances at the red cross on the top of the ambulances.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2805

 

Actually The UN suspended aid AFTER rockets were being fired from Lebanon.

U.N. Suspends Food Aid Into Gaza

Link

It appears Palestinians/Hamas are firing rockets from these very same locations, are you saying Hamas is above this kind of tactic??

Firing Mortars in front of a school

More 0f the same

Hamas firing mortars from school yard

Rewriting history again,or atleast a horrible attempt at it
Guess you dont remember the liveleak footage of Hezbollah Troops using ambulances for troop carriers??

Using Ambulances for troop carriers.
Why Ambulances Sometimes Get Targeted By The IAF.



Would you say that ambulance was a "fair" target??
I would.

 

Honestly, I don't take what the UN and red cross have said about this at face value. I don't think it was direct firing per se, only because of the vast hyper-sensitivity and bias against Israel in the media.

 

Hamas rockets are not laser guided weapons.

You aim it in the general direction, light the fuse and run. You can't "target" anything with them. It it hits something, it's pure luck.

Israel has no such excuse. They target with deliberate intent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S81IGA5AdsA



x

 

Neither are 99% of the rockets used in /on Gaza by Israel.

They (Hamas) are targeting Israel, they hit EVERY time(thank Mr. Newton for that,not luck)

They fired 2 120mm shells(non laser guided) and got 1 kill, out of 300+ people in the convoy,far from deliberate or accurate.

 

^True

This is a Merkava with 120mm HE rounds

But the majority of ordinance used is the 155mm aka M825A1
(if you count the burning WP wedges in the pics in post#1 you can identify which size round is used ie:155mm=116)

M825 155mm Projectile

The M825 is a 155mm Smoke projectile used to provide screening or marking smoke. It is a separate loading munition using a hollow forged steel shell. The shape is ogival with a boat tail for aerodynamic efficiency and a welded steel baseplate. Close to the base is a gilding metal drive band protected by a grommet until just before loading.
The M825 White Phosphorus (Felt-Wedge) is a 155mm base ejection projectile designed to produce a smoke screen on the ground for a duration of 5 to 15 minutes. It consists of two major components, the projectile carrier, and the payload. The projectile carrier delivers the payload to the target. The payload consists of 116 WP-saturated felt wedges.After ejection, the WP felt wedges fall to ground in a elliptical pattern. Each wedge will then becomes a source of smoke. The projectile is ballistically similar to the M483A1 DPICM family of projectiles.
Smoke ammunition is a limited asset. Since ammunition requirements vary with each mission, observers should know the amount and types of smoke ammunition available and how many minutes of coverage it can provide. Extensive, planned smoke employment should be coordinated early with firing units to allow for redistribution or requisition of ammunition.
The Field Artillery employment of smoke is based upon two delivery techniques: Quick Smoke or Immediate Smoke. Immediate Smoke is designed to build a immediate screen on a point or small area target of 150 meters or less. It utilizes a normal time limit of 5 to 30 minutes in duration. Immediate smoke is normally fired using a parallel sheaf as a separate mission, or as a follow up to an immediate suppression mission. The initial volley may be fired with shell WP, or a mix of shells WP and shell HC. When firing the M825 projectile all howitzers should fire M825 in the initial and subsequent volleys.
Quick Smoke is used to build a screen 100 to 1500 meters in length, depending on the projectile selected. It may be fire as a pre-planned target or target of opportunity. Targets that are exceed the battery sheaf sizes in length should be pre-planned, due to ammunition constraints and the possible need to segment the target. It may be processed as an Adjust Fire or Fire For Effect mission. Accurate mission processing on pre-planned targets, in addition to meeting the five requirements for accurate predicted fire, pre-supposes a positive correlation between wind direction at the screen location and what is listed on line 00 of the current met message.
The M825A1 White Phosphorus shell deploys 116 WP impregnated felt wedges that provide screening for about 5-10 minutes over a 125-250 meter area that obscures enemy vision or screens maneuvering elements. It deploys about 12.75 lbs of White Phosphorus impregnated felt wedges, and weighs about 102 lbs.
The body of this 155mm projectile consists of a hollow steel shell containing the fill. A fuze adapter is screwed into the body and brazed in place. The agent is added and the burster well is then press-fit into the fuze adapter followed by the M6 Tetrytol burster being installed into the burster well. A fuze well cup made of either aluminum or Bakelite is installed by first coating the lower interior threads of the fuze adapter with sealing compound or cement and the screwing the cup down into the fuze adapter.



source




picture taken 01/04/09 north of Gaza

The light blue are the WP round, The olive drab are the HE round.
Fired by a 155mm Israeli Howitzer

 

You're telling me that with all the high tech weapons Israel has, they can't pinpoint what they want better than Hamas can? There's no comparison.

Look at the death tolls. Somebody is a better shot. Because they have superior weapons.

That will change. This war is fixing to include a few other participants to even up the playing field.

They have better weapons than Hamas.



x

 

I believe you began the argument not about "better" weapons but rather you had claimed that Israel had "laser" weapon rockets.

 

No, I'm saying Israel can have accidents too, no one is perfect.

And Superior Tactics.

Even up, ha.

Before you get too excited ,Hezbollah learned their lesson the first time, the hard way, i doubt they get involved full scale if at all.

Who doesn't ? I know i do.

One small detail left out, tho (they) might have better weapons the Hamas,they still don't come close to US/Israel weapons.

 

Nothing is coming close to Israel or the US either, including support from the rest of the world.

A fine corner we've painted ourselves into with Israel.

We're party to war crimes.



x

 

Israel still has support from the US,Britain"which includes Canada ey Ari?" and France.


Israel has been hit by Hamas rockets over 3500 times (just in the last year)



One of the many many many differences between You & I, i don't have to tell lies or spread anti-semitism to get the truth out.

 

And killed how many people?

This has nothing to do with anti-semitism. It has to do with the actions of a few people who control Israel and the zionist movement.

You portray yourself as an intelligent young man, yet you can't see this for some reason.

You, like so many others, make it into a racial issue because as soon as the word "Jew" pops up, you've been programmed to jump.

I'm not the one who programmed you to be that way.


x

 

The Field Artillery employment of smoke is based upon two delivery techniques: Quick Smoke or Immediate Smoke. Immediate Smoke is designed to build a immediate screen on a point or small area target of 150 meters or less. It utilizes a normal time limit of 5 to 30 minutes in duration. Immediate smoke is normally fired using a parallel sheaf as a separate mission, or as a follow up to an immediate suppression mission. The initial volley may be fired with shell WP, or a mix of shells WP and shell HC. When firing the M825 projectile all howitzers should fire M825 in the initial and subsequent volleys.
Quick Smoke is used to build a screen 100 to 1500 meters in length, depending on the projectile selected. It may be fire as a pre-planned target or target of opportunity. Targets that are exceed the battery sheaf sizes in length should be pre-planned, due to ammunition constraints and the possible need to segment the target. It may be processed as an Adjust Fire or Fire For Effect mission. Accurate mission processing on pre-planned targets, in addition to meeting the five requirements for accurate predicted fire, pre-supposes a positive correlation between wind direction at the screen location and what is listed on line 00 of the current met message.
The M825A1 White Phosphorus shell deploys 116 WP impregnated felt wedges that provide screening for about 5-10 minutes over a 125-250 meter area that obscures enemy vision or screens maneuvering elements. It deploys about 12.75 lbs of White Phosphorus impregnated felt wedges, and weighs about 102 lbs.

I can appreciate WP does not have as much of an immediate blast radius, but if the smoke is traveling upto 15000 metres then the smoke will travel further than the HE blast radius.

If the only thing that is actually detrimental to a persons health is the wedges that come out from the munition and the smoke is completely harmless, then you have aswered my question.

In my minds eye the smoke would seep into every nook and cranny - through windows under doors etc. Potentially affecting more people.

I was just confused because it seemed like Rat, when talking about WP "raining down", was talking about the smoke not shrapnel per se.
Both potentially deadly.

 

Seems to me Rat was.

Well as I said, I think its a non-issue.

But they did have a three hour pause that let through aid.

I don't think there is ineptitude or lack of adherance to Geneva Conventions. Its the fog of war, you can't have people running around in white hats through the middle of it. A Geneva Conventions compliant war isn't some football game with a referee blowing whistles and officiating.

I agree.

I agree with that too. Ultimately I think this ground invasion was a mistake, there is going to be too much collateral damage for too little gain.

 

I too, i believe the air offensive was ample enough force to contain the rocket fire.

Imho i think it was more about controlling Israeli losses than gaining anything.

One of Israel's main principals in counter-attack is Transferring the battle to enemy territory quickly. In which i agree 100%