I know without a doubt there is no god

And why exactly is that? Why avoid living life to your fullest potential?

 

The statement.
"occam does not seek more life"

Relates to the huge amount of time many spend looking for proof that there is
conscious personal existance after our mortal death in this world...

And when they cannot find it... They believe it anyway....

Occam thinks it is an interesting idea..But fears the 'nonexistance of self' that appears to be the result of death.
No more than he fears the 'nonexistance of self' that WAS before he was concieved.

The trauma of death is indeed scary...occam hopes he will snuff out in his sleep.
Not incinerated alive in a car accident.

This life occam has...what did he do to get it??
Well...is that not the question of purpose?

Occam earns his life by doing what he can to gain understanding ..and pass it on.
This is a purpose he intuitively things a correct one...

To spend this life scrabbling for more life..after death.. seems pointless...
Since the entire concept has no phenomena to back it up.
It exists as a human concept...and aparrently..no more.

Occam

 

That's one way of looking at it. But I'm more concerned with meaning than truth. Finding meaning in life doesn't necessarily have to do with fact. You seem to found a meaning of life: to pass on knowledge to others. I fail to see how this is the meaning of life, unless you can provide some argument proving it to be so. But, if you ask me, no argument is required. This is the difference between meaning and truth: meaning is always entirely subjective, whereas a body of knowledge usually contains both subjective and objective elements. But the point is, if all meaning is subjective, what makes the meaning of your life, passing on knowledge, any better than the meaning of mine, living life in accordance with God's Will?

 

Hammer

Of course it is not...
It is occams...and if ohers want to do the same thing.
That is their choice and responsibillity...

What meaning of life do you understand that is WHOLEY your understanding..?
Wholely a product of YOU? The mind you ARE.?
For it is YOUR life...do you assign its meaning so quickly to others' beliefs...
Do you shed reponsibillity for your acts so quickly to the words of a book.
Is that not FUNDAMENTALISM

Religion says you have free will...free will being the exercise of reason.
But if you use it wrong...
You will be tortured forever.
Then it says the one method that works. Reason..is the voice of the devil
For reason says ..where is the christian god?..and the religious say THAT.. is the voice of the devil..

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP

Occam

 

Right. So what is it that makes your choice, passing on knowledge, better than my choice, living like in accordance with God's Will?

I don't follow. I'm not saying that the meaning I have found in life is any better than yours. I'm just looking for recognition that the meaning I've found is as equally valid as yours.

That's what I was saying. You make it sound as if Christians are off the hook and can avoid taking responsibility for their actions. That's not true. I choose to follow God, but that's still a choice and so I have to accept the consequences of that choice. Because of my beliefs I am forced to conclude that you will go to hell, and so I am responsible for you hating my beliefs, and, by extention, you hating me. I can't go blaming that on God because I'm the one who has to deal with it, not God.

What does free will have to do with reason?

 

Hammer, I truly believe that your truths and life's meaning is equally valid to mine and equally true, even if dramatically different. This is possible since we are never to know each others reality.

My meaning is the camper's creed and the Wiccan commandment.
To leave this place a little better than I found it.
and
If it harms none, do what you will.

And I feel that everyone can have a different belief, and we can all be right.

I stopped believing in hell at eleven years old, that does not mean it does not exist in your reality, just that it could very well not exist in mine, yet still exist in yours.

I would love to follow 'God', or Spirit as I prefer to call It. I just have not been given clear enough marching orders other than what I have posted as my life's meanings. I don't know what will happen when I die, but I believe it is not the end, and am curious what lies ahead. Not impatient, curious, I can wait.....

 

Blackguard

1. Nothing...But that your choice calls for the sending of ANY which choose their own way..to eternal torture...
Occams way..allows you to believe ANYTHING you wish,,as your inherent right.

2. Occam HAS ALWAYS SAID that each believes as he wishes...
That is their right..

YOU..said " You seem to have found a meaning for life..To pass information on to others..I fail to see how this is a meaning of life?"

Occams reply was an attempt to find out if YOU understood YOUR meaning of life...or is it something you read in a book.?
Occams is not. It is a thing he made from the pieces of human understanding available.
If you fail to see how this is a meaning of life...Then is that not your deficiency?

3.
*Occam 'makes it sound like what you want him to sound like"
*WHO FORCES YOU to believe occam will go to hell?
YOUR fundamental belief,,without verification..in ONE book.
*Occam HATES nothing
*Or You..How could he hate one he has never met? What is the point of hate?

*What does free will have to do with reason?
Well to start..How do you know free will exists or not?
Reason.
Reason allows us to understand free will.
Reason also allows us to have it.
Do sheep have free will. Do sheep have reason.
No
Does a rock have freewill, does a rock have reason.
No
Show occam a thiing without reason..that has free will..The abillity to choose a path based on understanding and forethought. and wisdom.
One path from many options...The options are a function of rational free will..The thing your god gave us to decide with...
Yet calls the devils work...for reason sees no christian god...

Occam

 

I don't see how anyone can find anything wrong with that. But I've always wondered, about the Wiccan commandment, what about harming yourself, physically, mentally, or spiritually?

Oh, without a doubt. I'd say it can even make life better. Different view-points get people thinking.

The 'marching orders' are far from clear. You just have to know how to read the signs. Of course, it's a mostly subjective thing, but I usually look for help from the saints, in prayer and in reading their works.

 

TheHammerSpeaks
1:You can still believe anything you wish. The choice to obey or disobey God is still a choice, and your right. Simply because there are negative consequences to your choice doesn't mean that you have any less of a choice.


2:I do not fail to see that this gives life meaning. What I meant is that I fail to see how it can be proven to be the meaning of life. But it's a meaning, not a truth-value, so proof is not necessary. And if I choose to get my meaning from a book, then how is that any less meaningful than your meaning?



3:
It's not just one book. The verification is all around me all the time. Empirical evidence signifying the presence of the divine.

That's not how I concluded that free will exists, but I'd still like to see your deduction. Spinoza concluded that free will does not exist through reason. I concluded that free will exists because of emotions I feel such as regret. Without such emotions, free will is meaningless. Of course, I don't really prove that free will exists, more that the illusion of free will exists. But that's really what counts, after all.[/QUOTE]
Hammer

1.
Exaclty...Except with occam the choices are governed only by what is real.
He does not think christian dogma is based in reality...
In fact he cares little...
What he does care about is those snared by hokey fiction...

2.
Who decides WHAT is the meaning of life...You? Some impacted ink on sheets of dead tree?
The MOL//is a human term for why we are here...
As there are NO obvious instructions in reality as to waht tje MOL is...
Then occam makes his own...through his own resouces,

3...You say it is all around you. Empirical evidence...
THEN , you can show it to occam...
Show occam the empirical evidence of the christian god...

How do you do that?

Using reason.
The only tool we know off that works when it comes to living in reality.
[in understanding it]
A reality based on laws that reason is also based in.

Occam thinks reason works for us NOW....
It is our next few rungs on the ladder to what the buddhists call godhead.

And what rung on that ladder do we stand on now...?
The first...

Occam

 

How do you know it's fiction?

No, every person has to find his or her meaning of life. Meaning is entirely subjective.

And how do you accomplish this?

A text is made up of signs signifying things. When the principles of exegesis are applied to the entire universe, not just texts, all of creation signifies God... well, not for everyone, but it does for me.

 

cool.

 

Classic misunderstanding of logic, Occam.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/ipnegep.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/logical.html

- Laz

 

How do you know it's fiction?

Because HAMMER
It IS fiction based on our human understanding of such

Shall we dispence with the crap?

SHOW occam the truth of the bible as a real phenomena..

SHOW the FACTS that support christianity...

NOW

Occam

If you cannot...

Then start thinking with YOUR brain
And not the dogma of others.

 

Lazarus..


Occam is not INTERERSTED in your hotlinks...

He is interested in your abillity to think.

If he wants informtion from those hotlinks, he will find them himself.
They are not YOUR thinking..
And amazing as it may seems..occam is not interested in HIS truth...
He wants to hear YOURS.

Occam wants to hear what you think...THAT. is the true path to understanding.

Occam

 

Re: My meaning of life, I stated it somewhere that I believe in leaving this planet a little better than I found it, and 'If it harms none, do what thou wilt.'
I am still learning, and do hope to find more and deeper meaning than that.
I believe in Spirit, but cannot say I know much about what It is or what my purpose is beyond what I have written above.
I believe the rest of your post was directed at hammer.
And I do like your views a lot, they are very informative and enlightening to me.

 

No, it's fiction based on your understanding of such. Don't even try to speak for the whole of humanity. There are plenty of people out there who believe that the bible is fact. But you know what I think? It doesn't matter if it's true or not. Existence is not a predicate, right? So we could babble on for our whole lives trying to prove or disprove God's existence and get no where. It's the meaning of the bible that counts, not its truth value. And that's what I've been trying to get at this whole time.

You know, I could accuse you of the same thing. Start using your brain and stop following Enlightenment dogmas. But I won't because you probably have a very good reason for believing such doctrines, even though I disagree with them. I fail to see why religious people are merely brainwashed, unthinking automatons. This is what I've noticed is the most bullshit thing out of everything you say. You're trying to make the word 'reason' your own personal trademark. There is only one kind of reason, your kind. And everyone who does not use your kind of reasoning is, by definition, unreasonable. And isn't that just perfect? Because then you can just call someone who disagrees with you unreasonable and not have to actually think about his arguments.

 

feel the love people

 

What is love really?

(j/k)

 

BlackGuard

Well said

Honnest....Join us.

Occam