Israel is the opium of the people, and other Arab taboos

Does that diminish the value of the lives lost there? Why did every report on US news have to focus on the loss of western lives there? If civilian Indian lives were lost shouldn't that be enough to make the story news worthy? But when the train was bombed I noticed that story faded fast, international interest couldn't be held. But let the deaths be Israeli or western and there should be public outrage.

Let four Israelis be killed and a turkey shoot of caged Gazans is justified.

 

Well said.

Too bad that all the crazies will complete ignore this post or respond to it with empty rhetoric.

 

I'll second what BraveSirRubin said:well said indeed.And he is right in my short time on this forum I've seen there are quite a few crazies here.They're boring too.

 

The OP is good; it still fails to consider the Palestinian side of the issue, however. "Lives are being lost" - is suddenly code word for "Jewish lives being lost."

Finally, just because you describe the day-to-day perspective of the average Israeli citizen (or even the original intention of Zionism as an ideology), it does not mean that, at the macro level, Israel is not a part of a larger geopolitical struggle. And it is a struggle that has been expansionist and imperialist up to this point (even if the average Israeli citizen is not directly involved).

The sanest Jews I've spoken to, are able to dissociate their personal priorities from that of Israel. And thereby, state how important Israel might be for them personally- without pretending that Israeli policy is not oppressive toward Palestinians.

And also, without appealing to the kindergarten puritanism of "good guys (Israel)" vs. "bad guys(Palestinians)" - a puritanism that no state in human history has ever lived up to.

 

Cherea,
please notice that the article I posted was written by an Arab

 

I don't care. :cheers2:

 

Israel has never been expansionist as all these conspiracy theorists claim. Israel has only occupied Arab and Palestinian land as a means of gaining security when threatened from outside it's borders. Just look at Israel's relationship with it's peaceful neighbours as proof. Where peaceful relations with neighbours exist, Israel gladly remains within it's borders. Israel has made peace with Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan within it's original borders.

Until Arafat and Rabin under the stewardship of Clinton, failed to make an agreement in 2000, it appeared that Arabs, Palestinians and Israelis were well on there way to peaceful acceptance of a negotiated settlement.

Sorry about the length of the text below. I tried to keep the info relevant to my point.

From http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/globalconnections/index.html

May 14, 1948: The State of Israel is established.

After World War II, a showdown is looming between Jews and Arabs in Palestine. Despite their numerical superiority (1.3 million Arabs to 650,000 Jews), the Arabs are less prepared for conflict than the Jews, who have a government under David Ben-Gurion and an army. The Palestinian Arabs are still in disarray from the Arab Revolt, and most of their leaders have been exiled. By 1947, mounting violence, including terrorist acts by both Arabs and Jews, leads Britain to declare its mandate over Palestine unworkable. Britain makes plans for its withdrawal and leaves the question of what to do with Palestine to the UN. In August, the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommends the creation of independent Jewish and Arab states. The plan divides Palestine into roughly equal halves, with Jerusalem and religiously significant surrounding sites under the control of a separate international authority. The report also calls for the Arab and Jewish states to form a united economic bloc. The Jews accept this plan, but the Palestinian Arabs do not. The partition plan is approved by majority vote of the UN General Assembly on November 29. Britain completes its withdrawal from Palestine in early May 1948, and on May 14, the State of Israel is declared, with David Ben-Gurion as its first prime minister. Both the United States and the USSR immediately recognize the new state. In support of the Palestinian Arabs, however, neighboring Arab nations -- Egypt, Iraq, Transjordan, Lebanon, and Syria -- declare war on Israel the next day. The Israelis repel the Arab attack. The 1948 War, also known as the Israeli War of Independence, ends in July 1949. Israel signs separate cease-fire agreements with Transjordan, Syria, and Egypt and now controls about 70 percent of what had been Mandatory Palestine. Egypt holds the Gaza Strip, Jordan annexes the West Bank, and Syria retains the Golan Heights.

May 1964: The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) is founded.
Composed of various political factions and guerrilla groups, the PLO is founded to serve as the coordinating council for Palestinian organizations. The Palestinain national charter of 1968 will call for an end to the Jewish state. In 1988 the PLO will accept the two state solution implicitly recognizing Israel's right to exist. The PLO has employed both terrorism and diplomacy in pursuit of its goals. Al-Fatah is the PLO's largest faction, and its leader, Yasser Arafat, has been chairman of the PLO since 1968.

June 5-10, 1967: The Six-Day War is fought between Israel and the Arab states.
Conflict ignites after three weeks of increasing tensions, including a massive Arab troop buildup in the Sinai Peninsula, as well as an Egyptian blockade of the Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea of ships to or from Israel. On June 5, 1967, Israel responds by launching a surprise attack on Egypt. Other Arab nations, including Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, and Jordan, join Egypt in the fighting. Israel seizes the Golan Heights from Syria, Sinai and the Gaza Strip from Egypt, and East Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan before a cease-fire is agreed upon.

October 6, 1973: Egypt and Syria attack Israeli forces in the Sinai and Golan Heights on Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement.
The Egyptians and the Syrians attack Israel, hoping to reclaim the lands lost in the 1967 Six-Day War. At the start of the war they make initial gains but are forced to retreat after an Israeli counterattack. This war becomes known as both the October War and the Yom Kippur War.

September 17, 1978: Israel and Egypt negotiate peace accords at Camp David.
Just five years after the Yom Kippur War, U.S. president Jimmy Carter hosts Israeli prime minister Menachem Begin and Egyptian president Anwar al-Sadat at Camp David. This historic meeting will result in the first peace accord to be signed by Israel and one of its Arab neighbors. Several months of more detailed negotiations lead to the signing of a peace treaty on March 26, 1979, in Washington, D.C. Under the treaty's terms, control of the Sinai returns to Egypt, while Israel retains the Gaza Strip. In exchange for the Sinai's return, Egypt recognizes Israel and establishes full diplomatic relations with the Jewish state. Furthermore, Egypt guarantees that most of its forces will stay more than 50 kilometers from the Israeli border. The treaty also allows Egyptian and Israeli citizens to travel between the two countries. Most Arab nations boycott Egypt as a result of the treaty; Oman is the one exception.

May 1983: An Israeli-Lebanese peace deal calls for Israel to make a phased withdrawal from Lebanon. The U.S. mediates a peace and withdrawal agreement between Israel and Lebanon in May 1983. The PLO had been using Lebanon as a base of operations against Israel, and several times in the 1970s and '80s Israel had invaded Lebanon as a result. Under the terms of the peace agreement, Israeli forces begin to leave Lebanon, but maintain control over a 12-mile-wide "security zone" in southern Lebanon, near the Israeli border. The Hezbollah, an Islamic militant group that opposes Israel's presence in Lebanon, continues to attack military posts in southern Lebanon and northern Israel. Israeli forces will continue to combat these forces for another 22 years, until Israel leaves southern Lebanon entirely in January of 2000.

October 26, 1994: Jordan signs a peace treaty with Israel, ending a 46-year official state of war.
Only the second such agreement between Israel and one of its Arab neighbors, the peace treaty between Jordan and Israel establishes a solid framework for cooperation in the political, economic, and cultural fields. The treaty is the formalization of secret arrangements between the two countries that had been in place for many years. Because Jordan is dependent on Iraq for oil, has a large Palestinian Arab population hostile to Israel, and faces constant pressure from Syria, Jordan's King Hussein had in the past been reluctant to reveal his more moderate policies toward Israel. The elements that had prevented open and peaceful relations between the former enemies, however, were finally offset by the Gulf War and by the Oslo peace process, which made it politically acceptable for an Arab entity to be in peace negotiations with Israel.


September 28, 1995: PLO chairman Arafat and Israel's prime minister Rabin sign the Taba Agreement. In Washington, D.C., Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin sign the Taba Agreement, known as Oslo II, to expand Palestinian self-rule in the West Bank and Gaza and to allow Palestinian elections. In those
elections, held on January 20, 1996, Arafat wins roughly 85 percent of the votes in his bid to head the Palestinian National Authority.

July 25, 2000: A peace summit at Camp David between Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak and Palestinian Authority chairman Yasser Arafat ends without agreement. A peace summit hosted at Camp David by U.S. president Bill Clinton ends after two weeks, with the parties unable to come up with a formula to reconcile divisive issues concerning competing Israeli and
Palestinian claims to Jerusalem, security, borders, and refugees. At the summit, Barak offers far-reaching compromises to resolve the disputes, while Arafat offers nothing. President Clinton publicly blames Arafat for the failure. Barak and Arafat, however, promise to continue to work toward a permanent peace agreement.

 

Occupying Arab land in order to gain security and peace is an oxymoron. It's hard for me to even begin discussing anything with you, unless we have a common premise.

It's obvious that Palestinians will do anything to regain their land, so occupying more of it will not bring peace.

If Israel is serious about security, it should look into a Palestinian version of The Marshal Plan after WWII, alongside economically viable and equitable Palestinian statehood.

 

The Jews and Palestinians got along just fine in that region until 1948 when Israel was bombed and terrorised into existence. Do you know anything about history at all, or are you just another ignorant American who thinks they know it all?

 

Didn't the Irgun get funding from Britain in the 20s?

 

All the land that was occupied was taken over in WARS, which Israel did not start.

Shows how much you know.

 

You know Rat? You could have looked at what was accomplished and thought about the great success that we have already had. You could have welcomed the possibility there is to build on ties already made. How about you extend your hand rather than attack.

Yes I know, the Jews don't belong there. It is Palestinian land. There is no documented proof of Jews ever being there. I have heard it.

What I posted was proof that peace is possible! with a Jewish Israel in the Middle East. If you fail to accept that, there is not point in continuing this conversation. Israel can only make peace with partners in peace.

 

Oh, I am not American. My wife is. I am Canadian.

 

Poor Israelis. They've never had any choice but to occupy land.

And they've never started anything despite the fact they are not even from the region.

 

This is simply not true
read here


Cherea said:

it was never "their land" ,before Israel it was Jordan and Egypt, before that it was British, before that Turkish and so on.....

This doesn't really matter. I think most people (including most Israelis) agree that the Palestinians should get their own state.

 

Mai, it wouldn't change a thing.

Israel would still find a way to crush it.

This isn't about legalities or borders, its about hatred between locals and invaders from Europe that is resulting in the genocide of the weaker party.

This is being done with my taxpayer money to Israel.

I want it to stop.



x

 

There were people living there that were removed.

 

What interest does Israel have to "crush it"?

You have to understand that most Israels have no interest in keeping West Bank/Gaza (which are not officially part of Israel according to Israeli law). The reason they keep it is that they are afraid that once it's independent it will attack Israel (as the Hamas has been doing) . You have every right to disagree with them, but it has nothing to do with racism, zionism or whatever. These people are afraid for their lives.
Do you call Palestinians "racist" or "expansionist" when they direct their missiles to Jewish cities in Israel?


What I do agree with you is that hatred plays a very large part in this conflict. Also , I agree that your taxes are being used to support Israel and you have the right to disagree. Zionism , expansionism and imperialism are all fantasies that narrow down reality to present a false simplistic picture that looks cool on TV.

Cherea:

That is party true. There were people there (and still are) , but the reality is more complex than that. Firstly , these people never had their own country. Second the Jews tried to buy (and partly succeed) most of the land - we are talking pre 1948 here. The UN came out with a partition plan that the Arabs didn't agree with. "The Arabs" in this case are not the local Palestinians but their Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian rulers (some would claim that there were no Palestinians at that time). When the British left suddenly , the Jews fought to keep the part that the UN designated for them. The only other option for them would have been to be slaughtered by the Arabs.
Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza in 67 as a part of its war with Egypt and Jordan. You can read more about the 6 days war in Wikipedia , there was no expansionism, Zionism or imperialism involved. It was all about survival. Just like the Hamas....

 

btw- here is another interesting article about the illusions of Palestinian unity
again written by a Palestinian

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/globalconnections/mideast/maps/index.html

According to the PBS site above, 21% of Israelis are of Israeli descent. Another 27% are of either African or Asian descent. Just 32% of Israelis are of European descent.

Since Jews left the Arab and Muslim regions after the formation of Israel and those countries would never welcome back their Jewish emigrants, they too should be counted as among the native populations of Israel.

Write whatever history you choose. Jews have a very long history in the region and due to their treatment by other religions over the centuries, they find themselves in the unenviable position of being the only Jewish state among Millions of Muslims.
I don't think for a minute that if Israel if Israel fails to remain as a Jewish state that the rights of Jews to live in safety and security would be protected within the Muslim world.