Traditional Astrology Thread

I am one of a growing number of astrologers who practice traditional astrology exclusively. I thought that it may be fun to have a thread here about this.

What is traditional astrology?

Basically we are talking about astrological techniques prior to the 18th century. This includes Hellenistic, Medieval, and Renaissance periods.

Wait isn't it the same as what we do now?

Nope!

Here's a few differences:

• No Sun signs - at least not used as a major description of someone, unless the Sun happens to factor in heavily for that person.
• A much more complex system for figuring out the relative strength and weakness for the planets. This is called "essential dignity". It's actually the backbone of many important techniques in traditional astrology.
• Most modern traditional astrologers don't use the outer planets or asteroids. Those who do use them as an overlay. All traditional astrologers use the traditional sign rulers, so Pisces is Jupiter, Scorpio is Mars, and Aquarius is Saturn.
• Traditional astrology largely concentrates on concrete prediction as opposed to psychological or New Age spiritual explanations. There is still some spiritual elements in traditional, but it comes across differently. Traditional astrology doesn't spend much time on personality profiles either.
• House meanings are different. The 1st house is the querent as a person. The 8th is death. The 12th is secret enemies and major disease. The 6th is minor disease and labor. Sex in traditional astrology is handled by the 5th house.

There is a lot more to it, but this is a start.

So why did it change?

Partially due to the Enlightenment in the 17th century. Astrology almost died out, and thus we lost the steady stream of teachers who knew how to do it. In the 19th century it was picked up again, but was changed to fit with Theosophical, psychological, and modern scientific techniques. One of the major players, Alan Leo, specifically sought to rid astrology of most predictive techniques so that he could stay out of jail (England's anti-fortune telling laws). Things kind of blossomed from there.

But aren't we more evolved now? Why go backwards?

It is my opinion that we need to relearn the foundations of the Art. When I started with traditional, I was shocked at the detail and matter-of-fact way of dealing with questions. I like that.

As for evolved, well it's true that science is nice, and things like slavery and civil rights are great. However at the same time many of the worst genocides in history happened in the 20th century, as well as some of the worst wars, and not to mention weapons.

I could argue we have become smarter in the modern era, but necessarily wiser.

Anyway, I thought this may be a cool discussion, and maybe something different.

 

There is no "traditional" astrology, nor is there a "modern" astrology. There is only authentic astrology.

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  The table of dignities and debilities has been retained by many "modern" astrologers. Even from a conventional perspective, there are literally dozens of different branches of astrology. You seem to have a fixation on some imagined and stark contrast between "traditional" and "modern", when in actuality there are almost as many permutations of astrology as there are astrological practitioners.
  
  
  To not acknowledge the energetic influence of Uranus, Neptune, and other outer planets is quite simply ludicrous. There is a reason we discovered the outer planets at the times we did -- they were representative of the advent of new cultural paradigms and themes. Choosing not to incorporate these planets and planetoids into one's interpretation of a chart would be analagous to a linguist attempting to translate a foreign language with an incomplete syntax -- the result is always lost in traslation.
  
  
  Again, a sweeping statement with little basis in reality.
  
  
  Most of the house meanings from whatever form of traditional astrology you are practicing are one-dimensional and fail to capture the essence of the houses. The 12th house, for instance, is consciousness. It is the microcosm of the human condition -- align oneself with Spirit or self-destruct. When the Sun occupies the 12th, this universal truth is brought to the forefront of the individual's experience. If knowledge of this nature remains obscured by the type of structured approach you are advocating, astrology's true power will never be fully realized.
  
  
  
  The foundations of astrology have nothing to do with technique and everything to do with energy. What is astrology in essence? It is the macrocosmic representation of an individual's energy patterns. If that reality isn't acknowledged on an experiential level, then astrology's capacity to provide self-knowledge and inner illumination is severely impeded if not entirely nullified.
  
  
  The resurgence of themes that characterized an age (Pisces) as it transitions into the next (Aquarius) is not uncommon and the atrocities you mention here are simply symptomatic of that phenomenon.
  
  Authentic astrology isn't for dabblers, nor is it for those who choose the quick and easy route of strict adherence to technique. Astrology is first and foremost a metaphysical (meaning it transcends fixation upon the realm that can be apprehended with the physical senses) practice, and as with all authentic metaphysics, requires an energetic attunement in order to fully understand.
  
  Travis

 

I find the tone of your post surprising considering I don't discount that modern astrology works. I works in a different way.

The term "authentic astrology" is a bit odd, and I'm not sure you completely understand the history of astrology.

The fathers of astrology as we know it are Hellenistic. I hesitate to say Greek since many weren't actually Greek, but most wrote in Greek. The Mesopotamians certainly started the ball rolling, but the vast majority of what we recognize in astrology is Hellenistic.

After the fall of the Roman Empire, Astrology was further developed by the Muslim world.

Eventually in the late 12th century, it made its way back into Europe.

Then it almost died out in the 18th century, and the rest I already wrote about.

When you say there are many permutations, there weren't that many until the modern era. Even Vedic astrology is almost identical to traditional astrology, the reason being that Vedic is also based on Hellenistic astrology.

When you say the foundations of astrology have nothing to do with technique, you'll have to back that up with sources. I have some of the oldest texts of astrology, which frankly ARE the foundations of astrology, and they are nothing but techniques.

In fact one of the prevailing theories right now is that the majority of older astrological texts are primarily based on Dorotheus, and to a lesser extent Ptolemy and Valens.

If you've read these, and then the later Arabic astrologers such as Abu Mashar, Sahl, and MashaAllah, and European astrologers like Bonatti or even Lilly, you can't say there is an imagined difference between that and modern. There is a huge difference.

When you say the essential dignities are used in modern astrology, a few are, but not the full set. In addition to sign rulership, exaltation, and fall and detriment, there are terms, triplicities (3 for each sign), and decan/face. The outer planets were never included in these. So, if Uranus is at 3 degrees Pisces, I can't see if it's in its term or decan.

Some traditional astrolgers use the outer planets. I'm not going to say it's wrong, and whether you use them is your business. However I will say in my practice, I haven't needed them yet, and there is no question I can't answer with the traditional 7.

You accuse me of making sweeping statements, yet you say:

"Most of the house meanings from whatever form of traditional astrology you are practicing are one-dimensional and fail to capture the essence of the houses."

This is not the case, and in fact it's quite deep. This shows a lack of knowledge of traditional astrology and its techniques.

I will agree that the term "traditional" is rather arbitrary, but I retain the use for the sake of convenience. For the record what I am talking about is the astrology that was practiced by Hellenistic astrologers, Medieval Arabic astrologers, and Medieval and Renaissance European astrology. Vedic astrology has the exact same roots as tradtional Arabic and European astrology, but went in a slightly different direction. I don't know about Chinese. Obviously Mesoamerican astrology isn't part of this canon.

The astrology practiced in Europe and the Middle East was largely consistent until the modern era. That isn't my opinion, and if you do the research, you'll see what I mean.

It isn't my intention to discuss whether traditional or modern is better, and I will end that argument here. The intention of this thread is to hopefully show an alternative that many may not be familiar with, and maybe satisfy some curiosity.

* edited to change some wording

 

Nor do I need to.

Vedic astrology in and of itself exhibits variances, and I highly doubt that you could find an accomplished Vedic astrologer that would corroborate your assertion that it is nearly identical to traditional astrology.

Astrology isn't a science, my friend. The source that verifies my claims about astrology is inherent in its authentic practice.

You are an astrological theologist, not unlike a religious theologist. Both exhibit a preoccupation with the structures that seek to emulate the essence of their disciplines. The structure, however, is not the foundation.

To some, reincarnation is a theory. To others, it is an experiential reality. Which group of people do you think has the greater understanding of the nature of reincarnation?

The only huge difference of substance is the difference between an astrologer who has established an energetic attunement with the celestial bodies and one who relies on second-hand knowledge. A person could spend a lifetime accumulating conceptually-based knowledge about the nature of astrology from sources originating from all different regions and time periods without ever understanding what astrology is in its essence.

Shallowness has a way of appearing deep until a meta-level is realized. Such is the nature of the expansion of consciousness.

I'm not a proponent of modern astrology, nor did I ever make a statement even remotely implying that I am anywhere in my initial response. What I am a proponent of, however, is authenticity. Astrological authenticity isn't derived from a studious mentality, but a meditative one. Until a mentality of that nature has been established, everything else is just child's play.

Travis

 

Great I stated my case, you countered it, I rebutted yours, and you responded.

Now let's move on if there's any interest.

 

Although all of my years of interest (and a bit of study) in astrology have been modern, I guess you'd say, I am Most Interested in reading more about your techniques, how specific questions are answered and so on.
Also, if you know of any books (readily available through a library or the internet) that address/describe traditional (is that it?) astrology and techniques, I'd be very interested in your recommendations.
The older I have gotten the more I have found there is sometimes more than one way to the same answers.

 

Enlil6, would you be interested in reading my chart? I'm curious what your interpretation would be. I'm an amateur astrologer and have studied my own chart in depth for many years, plus have had it read by others a few times. I would like to see how your methods translate in actual application, and I'd be willing to give you good feedback. Let me know.

 

Most major elements in life (i.e. money, marriage, children, career) have a specific technique applied to them. Generally the first place you look isn't the cusp of whichever house. The first thing you usually do is find the significator.

For instance, for career, you don't look at the 10th house until later. The first thing you do is find the career significator. I'm simplifying here, but there are only three career significators - Mercury, Venus, and Mars. The Sun and Moon are never significators, and Jupiter and Saturn may contribute.

I look if any of those planets are angular (1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th). If more than one is angular, I go by order of preference - 1st house, then 10th, then 7th, then 4th.

The nature of that significator is taken into account, its aspects, whether it's weak or strong, and I go from there. Then I look at the rulers (yes each house has several rulers in traditional astrology) and see how that adds to the career significator.

This is actually one of the more confusing techniques. However the pattern is similar to a lot of special techniques such as marriage. For that, men and women have different rules, but you find the significator, consider its nature, then look at the 7th.

Traditional astrology has zillions of significators and rulers. Each chart has a dozen or so ranging from chart rulers, house rulers, financial, marriage, and children significators, significators or life and death, and many more. All from 7 planets.

The most comprehensive is Bonatti's "Book of Astronomy" which is pretty expensive. It's not perfect. The easiest to find is William Lilly's "Christian Astrology", and maybe Ibn Ezra's "Judgement of Nativities". I'm digging the Arabic stuff lately.

I took Robert Zoller's class, but he's not offering it anymore. Most of his course was based on Bonatti.

 

It takes me several hours to do a chart, but do you have any more specific questions?

 

I'm curious -- what exactly do you think you "rebutted"?

 

We could narrow it down to a career focus, as this is in question for me right now. Mainly I'm curious to see the difference between your interpretation and what I've received otherwise. The way I guage how accurate a technique is is based on how well it applies practically speaking. Would you be interested in doing a reading? If you'd like, I can trade readings with you. Although my focus when doing readings is spiritual evolution, so to speak.

 

Out of all the things that perplexed me in the original post, I'd have to say that this carries the most weight.

The Sun happens to factor heavily for every person living on Earth. In a heliocentric solar system such as ours, planets are revolving around the sun as we speak. Any sort of placement, house, aspect, or sign that they can possibly manifest, is done so because they have the Sun as their anchor. Without it, this formation of cosmic rocks wouldn't even exist. Mercury, Pluto, and all the other characters we've come to know and love would be floating off somewhere in the infinite expanses of the universe.

And going beyond formation, the Sun is also vital to life itself. With every breath you take on earth, you pay homage to the Sun. None of this would be happening in this system without it.


....and yet it's influence is almost totally ignored?

You'll have to explain this to me.

 

I don't want to do any full readings for the thread, but again I could look at more specific questions.

 

All of what you are saying is still true for traditional astrology, and even though the Sun isn't used as a primary factor for character analysis like today, that doesn't mean the Sun is unimportant.

It's still used for a variety of reasons. In traditional, all the planets carry three possible meanings: the primary meanings of the planet (such as Mars being war and conflict), if the planet is a signficator (such as Jupiter possibly being a financial significator), and the meanings of the house(s) it rules. In all charts, every planet carries at least two meanings - it's primary meaning, and the houses it rules.

The Sun's primary meaning in traditional is kings, reputation, and life itself. This is why the Sun can't be a career significator, since most of us can't aspire to be kings. In most ancient texts, they would say the Sun represents majestry.

So, if your Sun is strongly placed, things generally come easier for you. If it's weak, then things are more difficult.

There is a calculation called "rank of fame" where there is a whole list of considerations you go through for the Sun and Moon. Depending on how they are placed, they show how far in life you will go - i.e. a leader, a middleman, and so on.

There is another very important calculation called the "hyleg". Usually it's either the Sun or Moon. This is the significator of one's life. I suspect this is where Sun signs eventually came from.

I will say, that I have over a hundred books (maybe 150) on astrology ranging from the first century AD to the 17th century. Not one discusses Sun signs like they are used today. Not one.

There is not one book I have that says "if you are X sign, it means you are Y". The kind of dialogue we have today such as "I'm a Taurus so I'm stubborn" just didn't happen. People didn't have signs. The entire chart had to be taken into consideration.

So how did they define character?

First, understand that character delineation was a tiny part of traditional astrology. In fact when I do consultations, it takes up less than a page. I do it for two reasons: it's what people expect to see today, and because certain things I do for character delineation carries over into other things.

There are several things to look at:

• Rising sign
• The ruler of the risings sign - ALL the rulers. There can be as many as 5.
• Any planets in the 1st house
• Planets aspecting the ascendant
• Whether any malefics (Mars and Saturn) are in the angles
• Whether the benefics (Jupiter and Venus) are in the angles
• Whether the Sun and or Moon are in the angles

I take all of the above and combine it into a picture. It's not cut and dry. This is why I don't participate in sign discussions here or anywhere else since I don't think it says anything useful.

I'll use myself as an example.

I was born March 21st. My Sun happens to be very strong. Aries is the Sun's sign of exaltation and it's in the 4th house which is angular. This is all considered very good.

In modern I'd be told I'd be a good athelete or in the millitary, and that I have a "go get 'em attitude". I'm highly motivated since it's a fire sign.

The truth is, is that I am lazy. I hate sports and the millitary. I don't even excersise. Luckily I'm not obesese. I'm also a procrastinator. Any work I have done in astrology has been through sheer effort because I wanted to learn it. I had to force myself. In fact I have to force myself to do most things.

This is less a characteristic of an Aries, than of my rising sign (Sagittarius) with an afflicted Jupiter. In fact my Jupiter is opposed to Saturn (representing labor and hardship) who is conjunct the 6th house (also labor but also minor disease).

Sagittarius rising tends to make good teachers, but my Jupiter hates to work - Jupiter opposed to Saturn. I was in the hospital a lot as a kid, so I spent a lot of time reading and watching TV.

Plus, there's the whole notion of chart ruler. Mine happens to also be Jupiter. In Arabic astrology, there is a calculation for chart ruler.

Mind you this is just one part of it. I haven't even gotten into the humors and psysiognomy. Actually I'm still learning that part.

Personally I think that says more.

 

OK, I'll give you my birth info in a PM and then I'd like a reading on "career focus or work-related issues". Although I must say that I'm not sure this will give me a good sense of the difference between "Traditional" astrology methods and what you call "Modern" astrology. I'm very introspective and know myself well. I can tell when a reading is accurate or not, so I base the quality of the method with the result it produces. Are you willing to put this method to the test?

 

You'll have to give me a bit, but let me clarify a few things.

First of all, all of these methods are constantly being put to the test most modern traditional astrologers. We don't simply read a book and call it law. What we do however, is hammer the methods as written pretty heavily until we see if they work or now, and if not why. It takes a while to get there though.

Second, let me explain what career means in traditional astrology.

There are three major significators. These represent the three main working classes in the old days - artisans (Venus), merchants (Mercury), and warriors/blacksmiths (Mars). Jupiter is the priesthood, and Saturn is science.

Until relatively recently, if you started with one career, that's what you did for the rest of your life. Today people move around.

Plus, many careers are specialized. Once could say an interior designer and architect are creative, and thus ruled by Venus. You wouldn't say they are the same career.

So what I do is find skill sets, since people tend to stay in one skill set. I can't (nor can any other astrologer) see if you are a computer programmer vs. a computer analyst.

In my case my career significator is Mercury, and my 10th house is ruled by Virgo. Mercury rules merchants, astrology, clerical and mathematical jobs, and so on. So far I've worked in a hotel, done computers, and done astrology. All Mercurial positions. Plus Mercury is conjunct the Sun who rules my 9th house (religion and astrology), so you could say that weighs heavily in the astrology arena.

 

OK, I get what you're saying. The skill set works for me... I wasn't expecting a breakdown of specific job titles or anything. I'd appreciate an explanation of the methodology along with the reading, to help me learn more about the traditional method. I like to keep an open mind about such things, as I feel there's always more to learn with Astrology and no one method is necessarily "right". I personally feel there's an art to astrology. And the accuracy of the reading depends on the ability of the astrologer to weave all the different elements together into a coherent whole. I think intuition and insight plays a strong part.

I look forward to the reading.

 

This really resonates with me.

 

Does 9/2/70 mean Sept 2 or Feb 9? I'm assuming it's Sept 2.

Also, did you want your chart posted here?

I'm doing this a little quickly. Normally I'd also do what's called a "rank of fame" which gives me an idea of where someone is placed as far as overall society status is concerned. The idea is to figure out someone's relative position. Even though we may not have a caste system, I'd think a burger flipper is seen as a different level than Emeril. This sometimes affects career. I'm skipping it here for the sake of time.

Ok as I mentioned, there are three major significators for career - Mercury, Venus, and Mars. Jupiter and Saturn may apply as well. The Moon and Sun are never career significators.

The first thing I do is see if Mars, Mercury, and/or Venus are in the angular houses (1st, 10th, 7th, and 4th in that order). If so, that pretty much takes care of it. If you don't have one of these planets in an angular house, I have to use other methods to figure out which one it is.

In your case you have Venus in the 7th conjunct Jupiter. That tells me Venus is the career significator.

Next I look at the ruler of the sign on the 10th house. It's Capricorn which is ruled by Saturn. Saturn happens to be in Taurus who is ruled by Venus. Right away this gives a sort of "doubling up" of Venus being a very strong force here.

Saturn is in the 2nd house. According to the traditional essential dignities table, Saturn at 22 degrees Taurus is dignified by term and decan. This is pretty decent for Saturn. Plus Saturn and the 2nd house cusp being in Venus' sign (Venus is benefic planet), this tells me you will receive a decent financial gain from your job. It will take a while and be slow and take effort since that is Saturn's nature. This effort and delay will be good for you since Saturn is dignified. Saturn is square a relatively dignifed Mars in the 5th. You will have a little conflict from entertainment or children, but again this all looks like it ends up well.

Venus signifies all kinds of art, jewelry, feminine things, and things like that. So, it looks like something creative. Venus is conjunct Jupiter, but Jupiter is afflicted, so any benefit he can give will be weak or brief.

Jupiter is that natural ruler of religion. In your chart Jupiter rules the 9th and 12th houses. The 9th is also religion and travel, and the 12th is secret enemies and disease. However, Jupiter's essential nature is benefic, so it looks like you get a brief boost from religion or travel and secret enemies and disease. I'm making this example up, but an example of disease or an enemy helping you is maybe your career is boosted as a result of a vacancy opening up as a result of an illness or someone trying to hurt you accidentally helps you instead.

Venus is also in your 7th house, so it looks like business will also result in a partnership of some kind - probably female. Your Venus by the way is very strong, and that's always a good thing.

So basically, looks like something in the creative arena, some financial stability (not filthy rich though), and a little boost from 9th and 12th house matters.

 

Enlil, I have a question - what would I look at to see if there are grandchildren - or what could I look at in my son's chart to see if there are any children?
(Just in case: his birthdata is 11/21/1983 @ 1:26am in Laurinburg, NC)

EDIT: could you explain children and relative (siblings, mother, father, etc)
significators? (hope that makes sense)