Worst argument for the existence of a creator.

What really grinds my gears is the design argument.

Consider this:

Just because we have found a use for something does not mean it exists to serve that purpose or to even have a purpose.

Have you ever noticed how we are not actually that suited to living in this world? Before the development of technology, industry and rational thought we were poor, vulnerable creatures working hard long hours to feed our ever hungry bodies in a disease filled world. We were open to physical and mental illness, an early death and a miserable life (we still are to some extent).

It is only due to the advancement of HUMAN technology and creation that we have made our lives easier.

Think of all the "intelligently designed" animals that have not developed and still live a miserable life.

Humans are not particularly suited to living on this planet BUT out of all the species we have adapted to our surroundings in more ways than most. This is not because we are special.. or that we were designed.. it's just because there has to be one species that is first on the leader board for evolution.

A banana is very suited to being eaten. It was not designed this way.
It is the one of the millions of different fruits to have had a chance at survival. Out of all these fruit.. there are bound to be types that are particularly easy to eat... and therefore spread their seed and survive. The others die out. Simple.

The penis does not have a purpose. Neither the Vagina. They exist because, when used together, they create life.. and therefore more reproductive organs. We have FOUND a use for them... but they don't hold any objective purpose.

Any argument in favour of the design argument has got to be having a laugh.

 

So you're against evolution and creationism?

 

I havent mentioned a disbelief in evolution.

 

"The penis does not have a purpose. Neither the Vagina. They exist because, when used together, they create life.. and therefore more reproductive organs. We have FOUND a use for them... but they don't hold any objective purpose."

I would say the objective purpose of a penis is urination and reproduction. By claiming that human came up with the idea for what a penis is good for, you seem to deny that penis' evolved for a purpose.

 

Humans decided to use their reproductive organs for pleasure and perhaps to reproduce.. but just because they CAN reproduce does not mean they exist to do so. They were not designed with a purpose.. they were not designed at all.. we have evolved to have reproductive organs.. but evolution does not create objective meaning...

Perhaps you assume it is objective to stay alive and continue the human race? It is not.. but we do reproduce.

A man using his penis for means other than reproduction is not using in anyless of a "right" way... it's just that it will not lead to reproduction.. but reproduction is not our purpose.

Unless ofcourse you believe in God.

 

I believe in evolution and think creationism and intelligent design are pretty stupid, but it doesn't change my belief in the creator of the universe and reality as a whole

 

Umm, if you believe in God, then reproduction wouldn't be our purpose, our purpose would be a higher one of being a good person in the world and to yourself and in the eyes of god. If you don't believe in god, then all of nature if based on reproduction, which is true, most of evolution has been focused on how to survive and how to mate better. Reproduction is the purpose of any species and science agrees with this. Love in itself as humans know it could be argued as a way of reproduction, when you love someone and your child, it makes you stick around with who you mated with and protect the child, and when you love someone and stay with one person, both sides man and woman know who's genetics they're getting, especially men, they know it's their genetics that are being passed down.

 

"Because the Bible says so"


x

 

Have you ever taken a biology course? OF COURSE their evolutionary purpose is to reproduce, dolt, that's all any species objective is. Look at salmon for fuck's sake--they actually sacrifice their own lives in order to create the next generation. Saying their main purpose is for pleasure is bass ackwards---they feel pleasurable because what other reason would we have to want to have sex?? Would you have sex if it didn't feel good? Just like when you eat your body releases seratonin---to encourage us to eat, because we have to eat for our own survival. What evolutionary purpose would "pleasure" serve us??

What??? Who's ass did you pull that one from?? Do you have any evidence of any of this??

It's not "wrong" to masturbate, it's just not the ultimate purpose for genitalia. So the only reason to reproduce is if you believe in god?? Then why do atheists willingly have kids?

To the contrary, the Bible talks not only of reproduction, but also of love, and the purpose of sex as to bring man and woman as one flesh. ANIMALS have sex only for reproductive reasons, humans (and dolphins) are the only animals that have sex for reasons other than reproduction. Most other mammals only have sex when the female is fertile. If the point of sex is only for pleasure, why is this the case??

For the love of god, go take a biology course.

 

I inferred it from your post, the part mentioning certain species not developing, according to evolution, all species that start to suck start to develop.

 

This may be the worst argument for the worst argument for the existence of a creator. Part of the confusion has to do with the word "purpose". If that conveys to you the idea that something is part of a higher plan, I agree that our physical makeup isn't a good argument for the existence of a creator. But when you talk about reproduction, you seem to be saying that our reproductive organs didn't evolve because of any survival advantage to the species, which is nonsense. To say that the penis just somehow evolved, and then we decided to use it for sex is absurd. It evolved because it gave us, and lots of species lower and prior to us on the evolutionary ladder, a reproductive advantage in the struggle for survival. That isn't necessarily purpose, in the sense of planning, but it's functional, in the sense of contributing to the survival and well being of an organism. As far as purpose is concerned, some scholars argue that the purpose may be one step removed from the direct design of a species. One of the leading evolutionary biologists in the country, Dr. Kenneth Miller, testified against Intelligent Design in the Dover School Board case. Interestingly, he believes that we're part of a higher plan, but thinks that God fine-tuned the laws of the universe to make it likely that an intelligent species of some sort would evolve with the capacity to think about these questions. Could he be right?

 

I was referring to the bible telling us to use our reproductive organs only for sex. Hence.. if you follow a relgion, the purpose of reproductive organs is to reproduce (usually).

Ofcourse.. evolution is all about survival and survival of the fittest.. but evolution is a natural thing.. it has never "focused itself" on anything.. it is just the result of life being reproduced.. and anything that benefits life, survives.

NO. Science doesn't declare the purpose of ANYTHING. Science describes how things happen and work. GOD declares the purpose of things (e.g. the penis is for reproducing).. and if there is no God.. then there is no purpose.

Sciences as told us what evolution is and how it works.. and that the reproductive organs reproduce.. but just because something CAN work does not mean it was "created" to work... it just does because of evolution.

You are assuming that if something creates life then that is more important than any other function. Life is not a purpose.

A guy making love to his wife and creating a child does not entail any more success or meaning than a guy wanking off into a tissue... Without reason to think mans purpose is to stay alive.. we shouldn't assume so.

 

Like i mentioned above... WHERE IN SCIENCE DOES IT MENTION THAT EVOLUTION HAS MEANING OR A PURPOSE? Science describes life it does not attribute meaning to it! Yes reproduction is completely relevant to evolution because it creates life.. but evolution is just a proccess that takes place through reproduction.

This is the way you're thinking:

"Oh look, people reproduce. Therefore i conclude that our purpose in life is to reproduce."

Thats rubbish.. and science doesn't support it.... it just explains how things work. We recreate because we love one another.. we love children.. etc etc but this does not mean it is our purpose.

Once again.. you are assuming that because we need to eat and reproduce to stay alive and keep humanity going.. that reproduction is our purpose.

So if a person doesn't have children in their life, have they failed there purpose? Are there lives any less relevent? Does the fact that they use sex only for pleasure mean that they are not using their reproductive organs for the "right" reasons? NO.

Urm.. to assume that the human objective is to reproduce is very un-logical and not at all scientific. We create our own meaning.. and there is no God to dictate what we are supposed to do. Science simply shows that we do reproduce.. but why does that mean we should?

I'm not saying reproduction is a bad thing.. but there is no such thing as purpose.

WHY?

They willingly have kids because they are not stupid thiests who reproduce when told to. They reproduce for the pleasure, for the child, to share a child with thier partner, to bring a child up etc... but how can you say this is what sex was MEANT for.

Where did i claim that the only point of sex is pleasure? That could be one reason for some people.... for others it could be to reproduce.

For God sake try to think logically.

 

I'm slightly confused.. but if i understand what ur saying:

When a species starts to fail they usually die out and the stronger survive.. hence "survival of the fittest".

 

I'm sorry if it came across as that... i don't deny that the penis evolved because of it's advantage to our survival.

Well then it's not purpose at all.. and to use "purpose" in any sense with science is not a good idea. Yes it's functional.. but it has many functions. You could stick your dick in a beer glass for instance and claim that you have found another function. I understand that the penis being used for reproduction has been particularly fine tuned by natural selection.. but thats because anything relating to reproduction (and therefore survival) is always fined tuned through survival of the fittest.

Functions that exist for things but don't contribute to reproduction die out for that reason... but it is wrong to say that reproductive qualities are more important, just because they make more of themselves.

 

yes, "survival of the fittest" is how animals develop in evolution, the ones in a species with the best traits tend to be the ones to pass on the most genes when a species is failing.

 

Semantics, one can use the word "purpose" in a spiritual sense, and you're right that it is subjective and purpose, left as is, is an open word. But it is fairly clear thats SFF was talking about function, and it is clear that a species main function is survival and reproduction.

Having said that rather then arguing, you could spend more time trying to explain your point, im curious.

P.S.
its illogical not un-logical

 

I'm not so sure.. she does hint upon claiming we have an objective purpose in life.

Anyway.. back to my original point... i was just trying to form an argument against the idea that "the universe is so finely tuned for human life that it must have been created".

People see human beings as being fitted perfectly to exist within our world.. as though a God made the world suitable for human beings (for instance.. i've read that if gravity was very very slightly stronger then human life would not have developed on this planet).

The problem is that they see humans as the aim of the world... as though this is what was meant to happen.. but we are just the end result of millions of possible species. We only exist in such a fine tuned world because WE were fine tuned to live in it.

We won the evolutionary lottery...

I'm having trouble explaining what i mean here.. basically the world is not fine tuned to work as a sytem.. everything was fine tuned by evolution and THAT is why the world "works" as it does.

 

humans are the end result of evolution... the proof for that simply being look at the earth now (global warming, running out natural resources, etcetc). think about it; we evolved and evolved and evolved. our brains are superior to any other creature, and therefore let us feel all these emotions and feelings running our lives. i wish people would get a better grip on that concept, there would b so much less suffereing in the world

not tryin to hurt no ones feelings, but any down to earth intellectual person should kno by now that religioun is a load of crap, with christianity leading the race, and muslim extremist not too far behind. (mormons get a freebie and win) we've evolved to the point where we can blow the shit outta each other from distances.

we are all here for a reason. everyone chose their present life. u r here to learn from the mistakes that you made in your last life; if you acknowledge this and act on it it can shape your life and bring meaning to your existance, if not, well, grab a bible in one hand and shove ur thumb on ur free hand up ur ass and twirl it around.

 

For the love of....

Xac said it best--I was speaking of evolutionary purpose, not subjective purpose. You can give whatever subjective purpose you want for any function, but in terms of evolution, genital organs evolved to be suited for reproduction.

And just in case you were unaware, with the exception of extreme catholics, the Amish, and a few other fringe groups, most Christians in America don't have sex only for reproductive reasons. There's actually nothing in the Bible against birth control, that's just something the catholics threw in. The bible does say to "go forth and multiply," but god said that back in the days when there were only a relative handful of people on earth. When you take into account God's call for stewardship of the earth, and the command to care for orphans (which there are millions of), one could even make the argument that in modern times, the bible actually calls for people to use more birth control (or at least have fewer biological children).

And btw, I've never even heard of people using penises to claim proof of gods existence, so I don't know what made you so concerned with this that you actually made a post about it. Anyway, a good number of people who believe in god aren't concerned with "proof" (and if they are, they shouldn't be, imo). Of course belief is illogical...so what? Does everything in life have to be logical? Has your entire life been a logical succession of events?