why do people eat animal flesh?

I believe that I understand your position on the subject a bit more now, I however still believe that the evidence show's that the food is safe for human consumption.

Of course there is a slight chance that even a well tested and seemingly safe product could have unseen long term side effect's but if a cure for aid's was found I don't believe patient's in the late stages of the disease would mind taking a slight risk to live.

That's how I see this so called "franken-food", sure here in the state's (where I'm currently residing) we have the luxury of picking and choosing what we eat.

Others are not so fortunate.

There are people who can and are greatly benefiting from food's and medicine's that could still have unseen long term side effect's in the future.

Some people don't have the luxury to wait to make sure it's 100% safe so to speak.

Sounds shitty but I think that's the truth.

 

Even if the eventual result would be to curse any future offspring, Children, Grandchildren or so forth with Down Syndrome, or crazy birth defects like Conjoined twins, etc.? Perhaps even leading to a genetic weakness in the population down the road which would allow another super-bug like the Spanish Flu decimate the worlds population??

Well the truth you're overlooking is that there are in fact absolutely safe and proven methods available to acheive the same ends if not so more effectivley in just as much time or less to end the Hunger crisis without threatening the Global Ecosystem or even a small fraction of it while their farmlands are reestablished thru Sustainable Organic farming practices.

But again, the real underlying issue is Human greed ( iggy: ), same as why these people are starving in the first place, Foolish farming practices, practiced for the same "Me, Me, Me, Now, Now, Now!" mindset you seem to be leaning towards here, using pestecides and synthetic fertilizers which in the long run work to destroy the very foundation of the Agricultural industries their survival is dependant on.

 

And R.N., to further illustrate the lack of need for taking unneeded risks with the potential long term impacts posed by playing "God" with the very DNA of our food supply I'll offer this link,

http://fukuokafarmingol.info/fover.html

It lay's out many very sucessfully proven methods of sustainable agriculture without resorting to mono-cropping or using tons of what basicly amount to poisons (Pestecides / Synthetic Fertilizers) with the goal of getting more for our farming efforts.

There is no need to take the chance you seem to push for, there are better and more effective solutions to the problem both in the immediate and long term perspective.

So be so kind in kind as to how in your mind just what Selfish and Self centered is to be defined as, so I can have a better perspective of where You stand?

 

Good post but I have to disagree, I believe the underlining issue is whether or not these "unsafe" practices are unsafe to begin with not anything to do with human greed at this stage. I'm sure that will also follow with it and will need to be dealt with in a different discussion.

As it shows now there is no immediate long term negative side effects from food that has been altered to grow larger or to grow in soil that otherwise wouldn't sustain them.

If we are forced to test these practice's for another 25 years to 99.9% prove that there will be no side effect's(from what Ive read the leading study groups in the field all agree that it is safe) you can imagine the untold thousands that would starve to death in agony just to be 99.9% sure that there was no adverse consequences.

To actually PROVE the statement they all already know they would be forced to wait up to 25 years to do research.

Some people would and should be allowed to take that gamble.

I'd like to hear more of your thought's on this issue.

 

keep dreaming. it won't be properly labeled.

 

And there was a similar point in our history where Science thought of Nuclear energy and Plutonium as being safe. Granted with proper R&D it can be brought to that state, but as we've seen, it has in the past shown itself to be a highly risky alternative to Coal and Oil.

Also, if there is such a thing as soil which will not sustain crop growth, it has simply been made to be so due to Man's blind insistance that his science is better than Mother natures wisdom thru the use of toxic pestecides and fertilizers. The areas stricken by famine are also those who continued using DDT and crap of that nature to controll weeds even after it was regulated in first world nations once proven to be destructive to their local ecology and the very foundations of their Agricultural enterprises. But again, these lands are ruled by folks who dont care about tomorrow, only what they can grab now, you know, those selfish and self absorbed folks you hate so much?

The one known and proven negative of introducing these GM crops into the wild is that they will in fact cross polinate and spread their genetic traits and copyrights onto surrounding heirloom crops which are known to be safe as they've been the foundation of our foodchain thruout history. Essentially forcing this new breed and the associated risks and continued costs on all who farm. Hows that for selfish and self absorbed?

Hydroponics and Aeroponics systems will acheive the same or greater results of feeding the starving masses desired using safe and proven methods of agriculture while their soil is reconditioned to allow for sustainable methods of agriculture which dont rely on chemicals that tend to do more harm to the environment and mankind than they do good (Again, it's mostly why there are desolate regions uncapable of currently growing their own foods)

Leading Experts also once concluded that the world was flat. Not of course to say that our degree of knowledge about the universe in which we live hasn't improved, but the overall theme of Lemming-like likemindedness in the halls of the Leading Experts has not changed one bit.
Read the paragraph above the quote, thats the disproof right there to your argument that by not rushing this out into the wild we are cursing anyone to abject misery and starvation. There are better and provenly safer alternatives to GM we could be using right now to solve the worlds hunger problem.

There is nothing stopping them from building a Biosphere in the middle of a desert right now and doing all the testing they need to. No Need to wait 25 years to begin.

And those people should be allowed to do so in a contained Biosphere so as not to put the majority of the unwilling at risk in doing so. Grow GM foods to their heart's content in a sealed Biosphere till we know their great grandchildren arent born without limbs or missing vital organs or have crippled immune systems...

And it is about greed, Monsanto and those like him are the head's of Corporations, not some pack of great Humanitarians. Were it otherwise there would not be Farmers fighting legal battles after having their fields cross polinated by GM crops and declaired "Copyright infringments" thereby forcing them to tear up their crops or pay heavy fines. Nor would they have implemented Terminator strains which will not provide a viable seed for the next season, forcing Farmers to go back and buy more whereas they can now simply save a portion of their crop for seed production.

Any more questions? I hope so. I like getting the truth out and you make a good sounding board on this topic.

:cheers2:

 

You are acting like the "franken-food" as you put it is dangerous, it is not.

Why would they need a bio-sphere to test the results of people eating this "franken-food" after they ate it it would still be 25 years to get the results.

Seriously your comparing genetically altered food stuff's to the nuclear bomb's dropped on Japan or the Chernobyl meltdown, To be honest it sounds like propaganda. (are you against nuclear power also?)


People CANT wait in some parts of the world for 25 years, hundreds of thousands of people would of starved by then and are starving now.

In the civilized west one of our largest cash crops is being used to turn into ethanol. Whats left is feeding parts of our country and trying to keep food cost's at a affordable price.

With the worlds population growing even our own food stocks will eventually become more strained than they are already.

I have never heard of any adverse side effects from eating modified food that could not have been caused by 100% organic food.

Again the treatment the animals are kept in may be appalling to some but if you eat your average chicken breast from K.F.C you may get high cholesterol from the fat but grow cancer do to some scientists playing "god" as you like to put it, doubtful.

Most people in America are eating genetically or hormonally altered food's.

 

do you not realize its the policies of the united nations,the IMF,the WTO and the world bank coupled with corporate greed that are causing global hunger?

it has nothing to do with a lack of crop land or low yields per acre.

educate yourself.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8877

http://www.celsias.com/article/the-food-crisis-misery-is-profitable/

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/hunger/economy/index.htm

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_13705.cfm

http://www.oaklandinstitute.org/?q=node/view/38

 

#1 : Thanks for that unproven allegation.

#2: The Comparison is simply for the sake of showing how Science will rush new tech for profit and testing in the wild, a foolish, foolish practice. Again, as with GM, far from being against Nuclear power, but when it was first forced upon us, it was again done so with profit in mind, prematurely. Just ask anyone from Chernobyl or 3 Mile Island, or those who were living downstream of the waterways they first used to help keep the piles of Plutonium cool inside the reactors, or the People living next to the landfills where we dump the waste... We have gotten alot better with handling it.

#3: Once again, people DONT have to wait 25 years, we can grow food anywhere using Hydroponics and Aeroponics systems till they can rebuild their soil, it's how the folks on the Space Station get fresh veggies ya' know. Really simple system... Anywhere, Now, Not 25 years away.

#4: Ethanol and Food production are at their current levels thanks in part to the Federal Government subsidizing farmers to limit production of food crops in order to keep the agricultural industry profitable.

#5: Fat chance of that, if the belt gets too tight, we lift the subsidies for farmers to not grow foods, they then grow foods and the problem is solved. Again, the only reason folks are starving is because it would both loose profit by dropping food prices as more would need to be grown to feed them, thereby lowering market values and cost soeone alot of Gas money to get it to the starving folks. Greed and more of that Selfish, Self absorption we all hate so much causing the real problem.

#6: You have never heard of harm caused by GM foods due to the fact that GM foods have not been allowed into the food supplies of any 1st world Nation on a wide scale as of yet. But if you're eager to see whats happening as a result, just turn on any "Feed the Children" infomercial thats on. But good luck picking between the health issues caused by decades of Malnutrition and those caused by GM foods. And again, they've only been eating it there for a Generation so not a good ruler to judge by.

#7a: Rampant Diabetes, global rise in reproductive issues, growth hormones wreaking havoc on the bodies of the young, widespread and rising cancer related deaths, Antibiotics weakening the immune systems of our nation,,, and all you can see is High Cholesterol??

#7b: You are correct insofar as Hormonally poisoned foods. But GM foodstuffs, dead wrong.

B.T.W. I think you have some weird Virus on your PC that doesnt allow you to see the words "Hydroponic", "Aeroponic" or the phrase "Sustainable methods of Organic farming:". Kinda Creepy... Kid tested, Mother approved... Now, Not 25 years down the road. Why not? Greed and selfish Self interest. If only a fraction of the cost that has been spent developing GM crops were put to building these systems for the starving masses of Mother Earth, Starvation would have been a thing of the past.

Next?

:cheers2:

 

That was a rather long and unlettered response, so what is your stance on this issue( I realize there should be a new thread for this) are you for giving out altered food to let's say an impoverished country in Africa that will grow in there barren soil in order to feed them?

I realize that your trying to say that with the proper agricultural methods and LOADS of not so free fertilizers and irrigation ditches dug every year they MAY be able to feed themselves at great expense to whomever will be giving them and showing them how to use all of this pricey equipment.

So before you go any further are you for or against genetically altered food being used to feed humans?

From what I've come to understand on the subject (probably not as much as you I almost guarantee) the soil in most parts of semi-urbanized Africa is the equivalent of a dust bowl.

 

Yea, a new thread would be nice.

To answer your foremost question, (Which I think I've done so already on numerous occasion, but w.t.h.) I am against using this new technology which has yet to be sufficiently tested in an open environmet where it will spread and contaminante and place copyright upon any and all other crops it cross pollinates with.

As far as your assertation that these GM crops will grow in barren soil? You are wrong, they will in fact require about the same fertilizers as Hydroponics, Aeroponics and the widely employed methods of Factory farming. These are not Jacks Magic beans. They will also not be free of cost, and again, they will not produce viable seeds, which means these poor and starving farmers will be forced to buy new seeds every crop cycle.

My solution, the logical approach as it appears to me based on all my studies into Agriculture and the underlying causes behind the "Dust Bowl" regions would be to first establish Hydroponic and Aeroponic agricultural systems, off the shelf their purchace price is high, again not due to the complexity of the systems or cost of the individual components but like with Gm crops, for the sake of funding further research and corporate profit, but they will also rent these systems out at a much lower cost.

If you really have feelings on the issue of solving world hunger and aren't just a Lobbiest of Monsanto's with too much time on his hands (Or even if you are for that matter), I highly recomend you go back a couple pages and read the WiKi about Aeroponics gardening systems, it's really some amazing stuff. Providing equal or greater increases in Growth rate, health of crop and overall abundance of yeild to GM varieties. The other big plus to using Aeroponics systems while the local ecology was revitalized thru Organic Farming methods over a handfull of years (Less than 5 if done right) is that especially in the very Arid regions of the world where the famine is usualy hardest felt, Aeroponics systems use very little water in the process whereas GM crops would simply take up what little potable water they had available to quench the thirst of the dehydrated masses just like regular crops do.

And on a final note, There is no need for commercial fertilizers if Permaculturing is practiced as the local environment provides all the Manuers, Mulch and Hummus nessisary for healthy and robust crop growth.
BUt again, the emphasis must be placed not on mass marketing and highest profit, but on sustainability. Max Profit goals are what got them where they are now in the first place.

So my bottom line is there are much safer and more effective alternatives to GM crops, that being the case, it's best to go with those alternatives. But I do not think that further research or the ultimate goal of perfecting the GM science should be abandoned by any means, just approached with far more caution than we've had a history of using.

But if you feel the need to continue the discussion, feel free to do so and post a link back here. (This is a big place & I dont wander too much )

 

Well i'll leave it at that because I'm pretty inebriated at the moment, I hope they make a new thread about altered food good or bad, but until tomorrow I pause my case.

 

I've been sort of waiting for you to start yours, so far all you've really done is criticize the notion of using better, safer alternatives to GM crops such as Hydro & Aeroponic systems while revitalizing the local ecology and state bluntly how you think GM is a good idea, even thou as you stated before, you dont want to be bothered with reading thru informative links on the very subject you wish to discuss.
No facts or supportive information to your side beyond stating that there are no proven cases directly linked to harmful physical side effects from eating GM foods, which is merely speculative on anyones part who is brazen enough to make such a statement as there have in fact been a growing number of chronic illnesses that have been plaguing our society these past 20 years with an ever increasing voracity, the causes of most of these problems have yet to be determined, but popular theories are pointing towards Hormonal growth stimulants and antibiotics being pumped into our livestock as well as the many residues left from harmfull pestecides, fertilizers and preservatives. And not that I want to burden you with the trouble of clicking yet another tedious link and doing a little informative research of your own, I'll suggest this site to you which covers a wide array of health related topics, some are GM related, others Pharmecutical in nature, but a worthwhile site to browse if you are at least open to the idea that perhaps quick fixes are not always the best answers to every problem Mankind faces.

http://www.naturalnews.com/

As an example to warrant greater concern, just look into any of our technologies, Medecines, Industrial Practices or Energy production. In every instance we have seen new things which promise to change the world and the way we do things only in turn cause grevious harm to both Mankind and the Environment. Of course over time, we refine our techniques and find safer means of doing things. But in the case of GM foods, once we let this Jinn out of it's bottle, theres no getting it back in, period. Once GM crops cross polinate with other varieties, there is no way to undo it if it is later found that we have in fact done a bad thing, unlike with any of the other general examples I gave earlier.

Enjoy yer' Buzz Bro.

 

this makes perfect sense if you know of the united nations population control agenda..However even discounting that,this study highlights the potential health risks associated with GM crops..
i would be interested in knowing who did the "alternative set-up of the study" and who funded it..

Genetically modified maize lowers fertility in mice, study finds


Vienna - Feeding mice with genetically engineered maize developed by the US-based Monsanto corporation led to lower fertility and body weight, according to a study conducted by the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna presented Tuesday. In the study, mice fed with the NK603 x MON810 sweetcorn variety over a period of 20 weeks showed a smaller litter size and lighter offspring than mice fed with non-engineered maize. The differences "were statistically significant in the third and fourth litters," according to an abstract of the study led by Professor Juergen Zentek and commissioned by Austria's Environment Ministry. Although in an alternative set-up of the study the differences between the groups of mice were found to be less pronounced and statistically not significant, the environmental organization Global 2000 said this meant that further long-term tests were needed. Austria has long resisted calls by the European Commission to allow the use of genetically modified food, but it finally had to lift its ban on MON810 maize as animal feed last year. However, Austrian feed companies have so far agreed to a self- imposed ban on MON810. The tested corn breed is a cross of MON810 and another variety and is designed to be resistant against herbicides and insects. An expert panel of the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) found in 2005 that the hybrid was "safe for human and animal health."Following the release of the study at a conference in Vienna, Global 2000 and Greenpeace criticized EFSA's approval of the variety and called for a ban of genetically engineered maize. "It is now vital to keep animal feed in Austria free of genetically engineered maize, and an immediate ban on the use of genetically engineered maize MON810 in Austria is the order of the day," Global 2000 spokesman Jens Karp said.
Copyright, respective author or news agency

 

Well on the pro-side, the hoped immediate benefit will be a more abundant supply of foods for General consumption by Man or Beast.

The potential for negatives have been expressed numerous times and there is growing evidence that these foods do have a negative impact on the long term health of the Consumer as well as to future generations of those who've eaten GM foods.

There are of course Contrary reports, and in both instances it is likely there is heavy bias involved making either hardline stance subject to suspicion.

But for that very sake it should be seen as a matter of great importance to not push this stuff into the wild as there is nothing conclusive as of this time to support the claims of either side of the argument. And as the one solid fact in this case being that once GM food's are released into the wild via. inevitable widespread cross-polination of the tried and true crop varieties, there will be no undoing what has been done, no putting the cork back in the bottle, no time machine allowing us to rush back and correct the error.

Mainly why I'm against it's immediate use and instead would like to see intensive, long term research done using humans in a highly controlled environment to verify undisputably that it wont in essence leave our Great-great-great-great-great grandchildren born without reproductive organs or eyelids.

 

I'm with you one most of that, but my gripe is the thousands of people that will die from starvation today,

If someone is starving in a cave and they find a strange mushroom that may have long term tide effects such as cancer (or if he's lucky hallucinations )

and they are on the verge of starvation I think they would choose to take the risk I and live another day.

Again I state You guys have been some of the best people I've met here to debate, but we really off the original theme (however wrong i thought it was) and would like to start one on altered food.

If one of you guys start's one p.m me and ill be down for it.

time for a xanax nap.

 

Thousands will not starve without resorting to GM crops,,,,
Hydro / Aeroponics systems built by volunteers using low cost recycled and surplus equipment funded by the same charitable donations which would fund the GM crop growing. Hydro / Aero would also have faster turnaround on growth rates, the bio-wastes generated from stalks and other portions of the plants unedible by Man would serve as feed for livestock as well as to help developing the hummus and other composts & manures needed to revitalize their natural ecology and permaculture Ag. practices without using toxic fertilizers and pestecides. No need to play God at a genetic level and curse the rest of the Agricultural community to having all their crops cross with copyrighted GM strains whatsoever required to save the starving masses.

I've already said to go start a thread on the Benefits of GM foods and I'll be happy to show up for the debate, still waiting for that thread R.N.

Sleep well, hopefully when you wake up you'll feel ambitious enough to check some of the links HHB and myself have given on alternatives as well as to the possible hazards involved with GM foods. I think you'll get quite a kick out of the Aeroponics systems, pretty cool stuff.

 

Why do people eat plants do they wish they could preform photosynthesis?

 

Oh by the way, it just dawned on me. There are a few examples of widespread Geneticly modified crops being unavoidable in the marketplace.

#1: Soybeans, almost impossible to find a supply that has not been tainted. Used as a staple for many centuries and suddenly over the last 5 years we've begun to see more and more reports of there being a bunch of potential negative side effects from cancer to brain damage surfacing all over the place.

#2: Corn, thou GM contamination is not as widespread, again a main staple in alot of very healthy cultures for hundreds and hundreds of years, now we find corn oil and whatnot are being linked to increasing cancer rates and other problems as well.

All since the advent and hurried release of Geneticly modified foods into the wild...