Why You Can't Call Me an Anti-Semite

While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, where the concept of Jewish nationhood first evolved somewhere between 1200 BCE and the late Second Temple era (i.e. up to 70 CE),[5][6] the modern movement was mainly secular, beginning largely as a response by European Jewry to antisemitism across Europe.[7] It constituted a branch of the broader phenomenon of modern nationalism.[8] At first one of several Jewish political movements offering alternative responses to the position of Jews in Europe, Zionism gradually gained more support, and after the Holocaust became the dominant Jewish political movement. [wiki]

So if all that is true, I guess the Zionist movement as we know it is only strengthen by anti-semetism which pushed for it to become the dominant modern movement in the first place.

So your basically helping an organization that you don;t like become more popular.
Jewish people on this forum might even read your anti-semetic rhetoric on these pages and look more into the Zionists and support it more... sooooo... good job.

 

You've almost got it right.

Zionism sows the seeds of anti-semitism itself to give it power among Jews. It does so to create the idea of a threat that needs to be defended against.

Guess who steps up to be that defender? The ADL? AIPAC?. IDF?

They are all fingers of zionism.

And a couple of them are stuck up Uncle Sam's arse. Deep.


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Lordy lordy, what a mess humans are.

And none of it even matters.

 

Xexon, none of it matters.
You're still just an inconsequential dickhead.

 

It does matter as long as I'm on stage with these characters. They don't know how to play nice. They use Judaism to hide their intentions.

Anti-semitism belongs more to zionism than all the white boy-redneck-kkk members combined.

Its like a slime trail a snail travels on.

Time for a little salt.


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So then what is your viewpoint on the anti-Israeli rhetoric from leaders in the Arab world? They don’t say Zionism, they say Israel, and it seems they want Israel and all Israelis, Zionist or not, wiped off the map.

 

Hatred has been sown on both sides for a long time now. Most of it is related to the zionist intrusion into the Middle East. It was rapid and violent and remains violent. The Khazars haven't lost their taste for blood.

Jews, are not the problem, because the problem is not religious. The problem with Israel is it's warmongering government, headed by zionists, and aided by religious zealots who intend to rebuild the Temple.

The real estate issue here is a sticky one.

The reason you don't hear anything negative about zionism in the western media is...they own the western media.



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I guess I'm really not sure what you are calling Zionism.

If I remember my history, in the wake of the horrors of the holocaust, Israel was formed to give the Jews a homeland where they could try to prevent such a thing from happening to them again. Whether its formation was right or wrong, at this point is a moot point, it now does exist and the only way to change that would be the dissolution of the nation of Israel. Which, I suppose, those living there would oppose.

According to the Bible the hatred between Jews and Arabs has gone on for thousands of years and would seem to predate Zionism. So it doesn't seem like it's going to end anytime soon.

In the mean time, it doesn’t seem like the two sides want to live together, not in peace anyway.

So what do propose?

I know you’ve said you want to get rid of Zionism but in reality, what does that mean?

That Israel stops defending itself? The dissolution of Israel? The dispersion of the Israelis again?

 

I've been very plain on some other threads on these issues but I always am willing to start from the beginning.

Zionism, in it's political form, is a dangerous movement that threatens world peace. The main driving force behind it are certain secular Jews. These people are wealthy and very powerful. Known for their intelligence. They've been a part of the world elite for centuries.

Zionism as a politcal force has it's beginnings in a book published in the late 1800's by one Theodor Hertzl. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl

This is where the trouble in the Middle East begins as we know it today. While there may have been friction between Jews and Muslims prior to this date, it was more over tribal issues and a newborn religion called Islam. Condemn it if you want, but Christianity had a bloody beginning too. This is an land of "tribes". These white skinned invaders from Europe upset the natural balance that had evolved over centuries.

These usurpers of Judaism, "Zionists", came to this land and claimed it as their own. Jews started flooding into Palestine by the tens of thousands because the zionists told them the land belonged to them and they should come share it. Share it with other Jews, not the people who were living there at the time.

Zionism seeds the population with racial hatred against non Jews. This is how it maintains power, because it champions itself as the protector of the Jewish "people". There is no such thing as a Jewish people. http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2008/10/10/jewish-scholar-jewish-people-were-invented/

Jews are followers of a religion and thats all. They are no more entitled to a country of their own than the Catholics or Muslims are. Zionism is a shame, and its being used to influence the direction of the US government in the present day.

It was the zionist influence that got the US and the UN to establish a country called Israel in the first place. Israel is now full of Jews, but the pretense that it's a homeland for the Jews is pure rubbish. Israel is a zionist state protected by little more than the fear of being called an "anti-semite".

This apartheid government and it's hypnotized population better wake up before the rest of the world wakes you up. You're scaring people.

The idea of unification only seems remote. Its because of years of zionist conditioning that people are snarling at each other like they do. When you remove the enabler for this, people will come to the understanding that a unified Israel is the only real option. Jews will have to drop the idea of a homeland and learn to share what was not theirs to begin with.

This two party state idea has the zionist trademark and seal of approval. These same people also approve of the Iraq war and the horrible conditions people are living in on the Gaza strip.

They're not to be trusted. Yet, we send them billions in "aid" every year. Since 1948.

I told you they were intelligent.



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Sorry to make you repeat yourself. I really haven't read many of your other posts on this subject but some how this thread caught my attention.

As of yet, I don't really disagree, because what you're saying is a bit new to me but I can't say I agree either. And yes, some of the things you say are a bit disturbing.

So I hope you don't mind a few more questions so I can clarify a few things.

Like the Wikipedia article you cited about Theodor Herzl, it seems that Zionism is just about the Jews returning to what they consider their homeland and forming a new Jewish state. But it seems that you are saying Zionism is a whole lot more than just that.

Next the Shlomo Sand article, in it Dr. Sand says that: “I discovered that the kingdoms of David and Solomon were legends” yet I have read that there is quite a bit of evidence, both historical and archeological that the kingdoms were not legends.

Next the statement that: “There is no such thing as a Jewish people.” I guess, I have to ask does this mean that you believe the holocaust didn’t happen or that it wasn’t Jews that died in the concentration camps?

And last, a couple of times now you have used the word “unification” and I’m not sure what you mean by that, do you believe that by removing “Zionism” that the Jews and the Palestinians will be able to live in peace as a unified nation?

PS As a side point I personally don’t believe that the Crusaders were Christians, no matter what they called themselves. I just don’t think that Jesus would have condoned the crusades, thus making them an un-Christian act.

 

Zionism, in the form I suggest, is an infection growing within Judaism itself.

The body of Judaism is by and large, in denial of this fact. They either turn a blind eye to it for fear of being pummeled by their peers, or are just plain indifferent. Much in the way Americans are indifferent to the "neocons", which is an extension of zionism.

True Torah Jews have no problem telling you how evil zionism is. It is against the very principles of the Torah. One of the most visable is:http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/index.cfm

Jews certainly took it on the chin in WWII. There can be no denial of this, but the facts have been proven to not be so factual after more historical research in later years has proven.

There is no more democracy in Israel than there is in the US. We're in the same boat and being pushed by the same current. People better start paddling if they want to get away from this mess.


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I hope you don’t think, at this point anyway, that I’m trying to be argumentative. I’m just trying to understand what you are saying.

Once again, I know that you consider Zionism to be an infection within Judaism but it seems from what I’ve read is that Zionism is merely the concept that Jews should have a homeland. This to me does not seem like a bad concept in of itself. Do you feel that this concept is a bad one or do you feel that Zionism is more than this and if so what else is it?

AS for “True Torah Jews have no problem telling you how evil zionism is. It is against the very principles of the Torah.” I would imagine that one could find those who would call themselves “True Torah Jews” that would have no problem telling you how good Zionism is and that the principles are found in the Torah.

For instance at the web site you pointed out, there is a speech by G. J. Neuberger where he says: “Thus physical violence is not a tradition or a value of the Jews.”

Now my understanding is that the Torah is made up of the Law and the Prophets and in the reading of such a Torah you will find much violence, in fact the “Promised land” that the Jews inhabited was taken by force of arms.

So a “True Torah Jew” might say that the Torah validates their new homeland, Israel.

Also when you say: “Jews certainly took it on the chin in WWII. There can be no denial of this, but the facts have been proven to not be so factual after more historical research in later years has proven.”

Not being a historian, I’m not that aware what facts, about what happened to the Jews during WWII, are not so factual that you are talking about. Could you please explain?

PS As a side point, after the Patriot Act there actually might be more freedom for the people in Israel than the US but I’ve never been to Israel so I wouldn’t know. I just know we have a whole lot less now in the US.

 

Not at all. I'm not an argumentative person myself.

The concept of a "Jewish homeland" is a product of zionism. While the religious faithful around the world may hold Israel to be a spiritual homeland, it gives no religion the right to lay claim to the land as their own because of what their religion says. This goes for the Christians and Muslims as well.

Zionism came as a raider, not a live and let live good neighbor. It's militant in nature and incites hatred wherever it goes. Wherever Jews have been driven out in the past 100 years, zionism has played two roles. It either got the people run out of town because of it's racist doctrine, or it took in the innocent Jews and offered them protection behind it's dark shield.

Zionism is now so widespread and ingrained into the Jewish culture and way of thinking, it appears normal to them now. This is what happens when something unfolds so slowly over the decades, it is no longer noticed.

The internet has played a vital role in uncovering zionism for what it truly is and not what it has been portrayed as. People are no longer tethered to the controlled media.

The danger is that as zionism is pushed into a corner, it may react violently. Israel has an estimated 150-200 nuclear weapons now. They've NEVER allowed inspections of their program, something they constantly push for in regards to Iran. They're afraid of losing their big stick advantage. The only reason they haven't used them yet is they're hoping the US will get involved yet again and do the dirty work for them. The Iraq war is for Israel, and its the first of many such operations planned in the middle east.

As for the historical facts, in another thread, I've posted information about how some of the death camp death totals have been sized downward in recent years. Because of this additional research, the figure of six million Holocaust victims is now under serious scrutiny.

Auschwitz made the largest adjustment. The orginal claim was about 4 million dead. This has been revised down to about 1.5 million. One has to question the accuracy of the other camps as well now.

The original figures were part of the evidence given by the zionist to the US and UN when the formation of Israel was being discussed. Its not beyond these people to inflate the numbers for that purpose alone. Zionists were also collaborators with the Nazis during the war. They don't care if you're Jewish or not. Just if you're with them or against them.

Additional links to anti zionist Jews. They'll never recognize Israel. They're better at explaining it from a religious point of view than I am:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/index.cfm

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/



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The best part is that jewishgen.org even addresses the number count. The underlined part is the important part.

Just a last comment. These last years some historians and or revisionists have changed the estimated number of Jews killed during the Holocaust from 6 million to 2.5 million. This new estimation is based on the fact that Soviet historians may have inflated the number of Soviet victims for political reasons. Some revisionists or deniers are using this new estimated number of victims in order to minimize the Holocaust or even to deny its reality. Even with different estimates and keep in mind, they are estimates, the Holocaust took the lives of millions of innocent people. Even if this new estimation is accurate, which it may not be, the question still must be asked; is the extermination of 2.5 million innocent victims more justifiable than the extermination of 6 million people? And even if there were "only"100,000 or 10,000 or 1,000 victims, this number does not justify the horror of the Nazi's extermination policy. The deniers are just trying to make banal the murder of millions of innocent people by German government policy.


The internet has also played a vital role in perpetuating bigotry, lies, and conspiracy. People are able to make up whatever they wish, and find whatever information they want to back up their claims...

The changing estimates of the Holocaust numbers has nothing to do with Zionism itself.
History is rewritten as more things are uncovered... but that does not mean it was originally done with sinister purpose. (Occam's razor)



Zionist were collaborators with the Nazi's... so now your stepping into that golden conspiracy of the Jewish people working with Hitler to force Jews into segregation and into the ghettos hoping to move them all into Palestine? and then what happened? in the end Hitler just accidentally killed them all?
Adolf Eichmann was a deranged madman who's personal journal writing exposed his megalomania and insanity.

Even the fact that you consider the actions of Zionists to be a stronger threat to... what exactly? the world?... seems unbalanced when you look out the spread of Extremist Islam and the fanaticism of conservative Christianity.

 

You, like the masses, are paying attention to the bouncing red ball.

People like me trace who bounces that ball and for what reasons. We are not prone to the kind of sleeping sickness that engulfs humanity from time to time. Our eyes do not follow movement. We are not predatory. And we program poorly.

Don't mistake me for a stereotypical "Jew Hater".

Hate is not welcome in my persona. It is alien to my own nature.

I'll say again that my only interest is in health of humanity as a whole. I address whatever irritates that body. No bias. No quarter either.

I address the problem of zionism based on priority. Between Israel and the USA, zionism moves through the structure of power almost unimpeded. This is not democracy in action, and these are not democratic countries.

The populations are herded for their opinions like so much cattle. When zionism controls the media by which these "informed' people are supposed to vote, they can make them dance easily in whatever direction they want.

There is an agenda at work here, and the people of both Israel and the United States are going to pay the price for when the world rebels against this New World Order.

I urge people to understand what it is that they support. Thats all.

So few do.


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First of all... I don't support any religion that thinks "holy wars" are part of the natural religious order. But I don't condemn either side as being the main problem in this situation, both sides are at fault.

Your arrogant nature is astounding. You are the first to call out "sheeple" but you present your information (no matter how wrong or right) in a arrogant, rude and disrespectful manner. Even if you were able to remedy this, your rhetoric is similar if not exact to prime examples of anti-Semitic literature throughout the ages so even if any point you made were valid no Jew would listen... so I ask...

Who exactly are you trying to spread your message too? Jews? or people who will try and "stop" the zionism movement? If it's the latter then your methods will most appeal to those who hate.

When the world rebels against the US and the zionists? Well since we're talking about Christians and Jews there I can only assume your saying that Islam are the rebels...

Don't get it wrong, people like you are just paying attention to the bouncing yellow ball. Your incontrovertible proof comes from the internet and other biased sources as well.
Who knows how you got attached to this one issue as your life progressed, but I do not know you, nor the way you handle yourself socially...

Your comments about the numbers dead in the Holocaust are belittling... even your comment "we all know the Jews took it on the chin" is disgraceful.

 

You don't think calling someone an anti semite when they're not, isn't disrespectful as well? Its a derogatory term. No dfferent than calling someone a ****** or spic.

People use it on me without even thinking about it, because they think they know me. They don't know me.

I take the worst ribbing from non Jews. They seem to think Jews are a protected species or something. Part of their Christian upbringing no doubt.

You can drag this out as a racial issue if it pleases you. I'll have no part of it.

I pursue zionism because it's a dangerous system thats growing in influence. I could care less if it was Jews or Amish behind it.

A certain segment of Jews are behind this movement. I'm not responsible for that fact but its a fact nontheless. They're criminals and they need to be unplugged from the power they hold. They use Judaism as a shield to block what they're doing.

You have to look at a much bigger picture than you're currently focused on. This is much larger than just Jews or Israel.

Zionism is everywhere now. And these convulsions you see in the world, many can be traced to this racist philosophy. You don't have to be Jewish to be a zionist, but that's where the heart is.

In Israel.

A country not founded for Jews, but for zionists. Jews immigrated there thinking they were retuning to a spiritual homeland, are actually being used as human shields to protect the zionist nest.

People like yourself with your obsevations of me are only helping their cause.



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Xexon, no it is not the same. ****** and spic are derogatory racial slurs. Saying that you are Anti-Semetic is derogatory to you because it is pointing out that you have expressed hatred and discrimination against individual Jews and entire Jewish communities. But it is not a derogatory term on it's own.
From wiki.
The Roman-Catholic historian Edward Flannery distinguished four varieties of antisemitism:
~Political and economic antisemitism, giving as examples Cicero and Charles Lindbergh;
~Theological or religious antisemitism, sometimes known as anti-Judaism;
~Nationalistic antisemitism, citing Voltaire and other Enlightenment thinkers, who attacked Jews for supposedly having certain characteristics, such as greed and arrogance, and for observing customs such as kashrut and shabbat;
~Racial antisemitism, as practiced in the Holocaust by the Nazis.

In addition, from the 1990s, some writers claim to have identified a new antisemitism, a form of antisemitism coming simultaneously from the far left, the far right, and radical Islam, which tends to focus on opposition to Zionism and a Jewish homeland in the State of Israel, and which may deploy traditional antisemitism motifs.

Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism, anti-globalization, third worldism, and demonization of Israel or double standards applied to its conduct may be linked to antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism.

Critics of the concept argue that it conflates anti-Zionism with antisemitism, defines legitimate criticism of Israel too narrowly and demonization too broadly, trivializes the meaning of antisemitism, and exploits antisemitism in order to silence debate.
And perhaps this last part is true also... Unfortunately you constantly insist on making this a global conspiracy issue instead of focusing on the area (Israel and Palestine) and beyond that, you have focused on the Jewish side as being solely responsible. This is not a religious conspiracy this is two conflicting countries both using reprehensible tactics to win over the other... and it is stupid... Israel uses political clout to buy more and more advanced weapons, and Palestine uses it's children to bomb cafes.

Correct! They don't know you! But the first thing they see when they come on here are your remarks and your pictures comparing Jewish people to Nazi soldiers... Do you think they even read what you write?
So I ask again.
What audience are you trying to reach with your message?
If it's anyone Jewish (who I can expect it should since the zionists your talking about are in the Jewish faith) than I suggest you modify your language and your images so that you actually get someone to understand your point... Because as it is... in initial impressions you come off as a raving anti-semite because that is how you portray yourself.

I strive to be unbigoted and if I must hate or dislike people it is for what they do and not who they are, and perhaps this we share, but I do not know you in the real world, and some of your comments and images here (not all) cross the line of concern over a political institution to anti-semitism.
My Aunt is a good person, but as long as I can remember I have heard her slip remarks in about "the Jews" at her work. Anti-semitism and racism permeates their unconscious. Thank god my parents were hippies and these traits have been eradicated in my family.

And you need to stop making comments like this. Telling people that they need to look at the big picture, or that they are "following the bouncing ball", or that they are sheep, only serves to close their eyes more.

Like I said before, as far as your issue of zionists in Israel and whether or not the area belongs to Israelis or Palestinians is an issue I care very little about. The conspiracies of one religion to me can be found in all organized religions. These people kill each other so they don't have to share a "holy land" It is no different to me that Russia fighting the Checks for their own land or any other squabble over land. Only this one involves religion. Perhaps the Israeli's are smarter for having taken their case through political channels to build up their army. One this is for certain... I do not care enough about the issue. It affects me far too little.

What I am concerned about are your constant remarks on this board, little comments that shine through in your rhetoric, and your propaganda images that end up serving only one purpose, whether you like it or not, and that is to promote anti-semitism among people who will not read further into what your are saying and may already have anti-semitic tendencies.

Your images comparing Jews to Nazi's and questioning the dead count of the Holocaust does not further yours.

 

"you have expressed hatred and discrimination against individual Jews and entire Jewish communities"

Really?

Show me.


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Zionists are jewish communities. Your expression does not have to be text based, some of the images you have shown express it as well...


Also I'm not playing a game with you where I have to prove through some sort of standard or law how I see you are being anti-Semitic... This is my opinion based on what I have seen of your posts for a while now. I have made my point clear in the last post... hopefully you read the whole thing.