Get to the back of the CLASS

The 'class structure', as however it stands today, doesn't really affect me in my daily life, therefore I give it no thought.

Now....ignorance. That sure exists. Judgemental people....yeah, there's a load of them too. There are no strict boundries between the classes these days though. I've met some really 'well off', public-schooled, 'old-money' people who are SO down to earth and all-emcompassing and respectful of different ways of life, then I've come across people at the other end of the scale who are the most rude, ignorant and snobby specimens you could never wish to meet.

I think it all comes down to generation. We live in a crazy consumer world, where people are growing up thinking that their life will only be complete when they have THAT car and THAT ridiculously-expensive wardrobe, and the world will only look right when viewed through THOSE £200 sunglasses. Therefore, anything less is to be looked down on. Fair enough if you desire these things, but they don't make a person and are not the be-all and end-all of having a successful (and more importantly HAPPY) life!

I've had an experience of this....my boyfriend was called a "disgrace to men" on the train one day, by a immaculately decked out fella, who was our age. After getting over the intial shock of his speech made to us on the journey, we had to have a chuckle over it.

 

I gotta agree with the good Doc on this one... the class structure of this society is alive and well... anybody who disagrees has their head firmly lodged either in the clouds or firmly up their arses...

saying that... class is as much a state of mind as it is a fact of money in the bank... according to my profession and financial circumstances, I should now consider myself a firm member of the middle class... however, I consider myself to be firmly working class... and this can often be seem through my reactions to certain things... pay that much for a pair of jeans?... you must be fucking kidding!!! etc...

I find it strange to admit that my children will grow up with an entirely different class identity to that which has been so fundamental to the development of my personality and cultural/social/political identity...

And that is so closely linked to the capatalist fabric of our society...

Fly...

 

I think this is kinda true. I'd be a little more specific though. The barrier between the working and middle classes has started to break down, and in this respect, class is often about perception rather than fact. This is probably where a lot of the confusion arises over whether class is still an issue in Britain. However, try believing you're upper class and see how far that gets you. The divide between the upper class and the rest of society hasn't budged an inch.

 

Yeah... well this perceived breakdown between working and middle class was due to Thatcher, wasn't it?... she took it upon herself to remove the traditional systems of influence and power that the working classes had (such as the trade unions, state industries etc) and present them with the illusion of social mobility (like the "right to buy" scheme) and access to the signs of affluence (such as the populaisation of the stock exchange, private pension schemes etc.)...

In doing so, Thatcher managed to take the attention of the working classes away from the inbuild (or inbred) privilages of the upper classes... public schools still provide the upper classes a privilaged gateway into the controlling elite... how long has progress in our society been hampered by the unelected chamber of the House of Lords?... and lets not even get into the thorny topic of the Monarchy...

Let's not fall into the trap of thinking that the class issue is about money... no... class has always been about power and authority and influence... Thatcher removed the power from the working class institutions whilst doing fuck all to balance the equation by removing power equally from the upper class insitutions...

And now Labour is finally seeking to redress this imbalance... the ban on fox-hunting... and it should introduce an entirely elected second chamber in the Houses of Parliament...

Rage hard, eh?...

Fly...

 

I agree. But the working class were also her willing conspirators to a large extent. She could never have achieved what she did without the active participation of those who wanted to be upwardly mobile at the expense of those they left behind.

In fairness though, the the decline of the traditional manufacturing industries of this country also played a role. The working class was always identified heavily with manual labour. As the balance has shifted more towards white collar/service sector industries, it's inevitable that traditional class identities have changed.

I'm not so sure that was her intent. I think she was more interested in undermining the working class support of the unions and the Labour party.

Couldn't agree more. The upper class hasn't changed one iota.

Yes and no. That's certainly the case where the upper class is concerned, but I'm not so sure that that holds true for the middle class. I think the distinction between the middle and working classes is becoming decidedly more blurred, while the upper class sit pretty at the top of the food chain lording it (literally!) over the rest of us.

Well exactly. It's all very well people whining that fox hunting is a class issue, but who are the real victims? The privileged elite who're still allowed to enjoy a barbaric 'sport' simply because of their position? Let's face it - if fox hunting was a working class activity, does anyone seriously think it would still be legal?

As for an elected second chamber..... sooner the bloody better. Typical of new fucking labour to lack the balls to go all the way and abolish hereditary patronage.

 

I've always considered myself working class because of my roots and some of the things I've done for a living

However, I honestly get confused about just what class certain people would be and whether it is possible for people to change class ... I guess that might also be due to better opportunities in the modern world but really I don't know ... Or maybe there is a new 'lower' exploited class that hasn't yet been labelled.

For example what would people on here class the following as (if anything)?

1. A man who works in a factory for 20 years and saves enough money to start his own company. The company thrives and ends up employing 30 people on relatively good wages, it makes huge profits

2. A female social worker who's father worked down the pits, she doesn't work for a profit making organisation.

3. A doctor's son who fails medical college and ends up working in macdonalds to make ends meet.

4. A lord who gambles his fortune away and ends up losing all his property and stately homes while paying off debts. He realises that money isn't everything, ends up meeting a woman on a council estate and they have children

5. An immigrant refugee from a very poor war torn part of the world, he struggles hard doing mundane jobs but eventually strikes it lucky and marries a very wealthy widow who dies leaving him a fortune.

6. A lawyer who is highly succesful but did all his training while serving a prison sentence for robbery when he was a factory worker.

7. A copy typist who wins the lottery and buys a mansion, she employs numerous servants on shit wages, they all hate her but she thinks they should be grateful as she has given them jobs.

8. A self employed plumber who takes on youth trainees as cheap labour, he is very cockney sounding and drives a £40k jag

9. Oh and finally ~ a greengrocer's daughter who goes on to become prime minister with a hatred of everything working class


I know that list might sound a bit daft, and I also know that people are still people and there are good and bad in every walk of life, so it shouldn't really matter ... I'm only asking because I'm curious to how people would catagorise the greyer areas of the class system.

In the old days people were pretty much aware of their career destiny when they were born but this really isn't the case nowadays.

This was all prompted by a discussion I was having with someone about class (a middle class RAF pilot). It was him who cited a few of the above examples and he also said to me that the class struggle only exists in the minds of those with an axe to grind ... Could he in any way be right and are we really closer to a classless society?

 

Did anyone else get the theme tune to Minder running through their head when they read this bit?

 

The simplest answer to your question is this: there are two main factors that influence your social class.

1. Social background
2. Wealth

These will influence the two things that really constitute your class:

1. How you see yourself
2. How others see you

This is why the upper class are still the upper class. Even when they don't have the wealth, they have the social background (family, often public school etc etc). As a result, they still see themselves as upper class, and others also see them as upper class.

The middle and working classes now overlap, but this is not predominantly because of social background and wealth changing. It's because the way people are seen is changing. Because there is no longer such a strict division between blue/white collar workers, the class boundary is less easy to define. The middle class is a less exclusive group socially than the upper class, so "social background" is less of a factor, and could be something as simple as a decent education and parents who didn't work down the pits - a background available to pretty much anyone. So if you have a decent job to boot, it ain't too hard to be accepted as middle class. Of course, whether you see yourself as middle class will largely be down to your family background and social conditioning.

Class is a complicated issue. There are no solid rules anymore when it comes to working/middle classes. I'd argue at either extreme though, the classes very much exist. I know plenty of people where I grew up in Liverpool who'll always identify themselves as working class, however much money they earn or whatever job they do. I can also think of plenty of people who've come from comfortable suburban backgrounds and never had to worry about money who I'd call middle class without hesitation. They probably think of themselves in the same way. Of course, working class is more of a personal identity for the individual because it's been associated with the struggle of the workers against exploitation.

On some levels class can be just a label. If I call a university educated doctor middle class, it's just shorthand for someone from a reasonably wealthy background. His class probably has little meaning to him, and he could just as easily have had poor grandparents.

But an ex-docker from Liverpool is working class. That's how he sees himself. This is his social definition. This is how he's lived his life. It informs his morality, his politics, and probably his religion. You can tell him class is dead until you're blue in the face, and he'll just piss himself before he punches you.

And a general in the British army who was educated at Eton and Oxford is upper class. That's how he sees himself. Again, it's his social definition.

At certain levels of society, class has become less meaningful. Which is largely a good thing. At other levels though, class is very much alive and kicking. Whether you like it or not.

 

Nice answer, I guess that sums it up but I couldn't find the words that I wanted, I might quote you elsewhere if you don't mind.

 

Bloody hell. I thought I was just rambling! Ah well, if you think it makes sense, quote whatever you like

 

It's the differences that confuse me, they are not so defined as they might have been 50 years ago.

Another example: I passed my 11+ and went to grammar school, the headmaster of the school in question had a 'special arrangement' with Sandhurst Military Academy that would have enabled me to go straight into the Army as an officer should I have chosen that route, from that position I would have been able to work my way through the ranks much quicker. I doubt that I would have ever become upper class though or that I would have wanted too.

 

Haha - I just found this on the bbc h2g2 site:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A249293

 

Ha! Excellent!!!

 

I was just looking at this chart on the inland revenue website



http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=2

It seems 10% of the richest people in the UK actually own 56% of the wealth in this country (2001) when compared with 50% in 1976

 

And it'll be those fuckers who say we live in a classless society!