I know it's not really groovin with the Tao to be arguing with people about their beliefs, but I find it so horifying that so many people believe in a God that judges and condemns souls to eternal agony for one short lifetime of not being quite holy enough...and they teach thier children this crap!! I know the nightmares those beliefs gave me as a kid, and I was a good kid, supposedly "born again" and all that nonsense, but still felt like the deamons were going to take me to hell in my sleep. Now I realize how foolish it all was, but I was just a kid and here were these adults scaring the shit out of me with all he satan and hell nonsense. I don't hate christians...I just hate the beliefs, and if they feel the need to try to save me from hell, I'd much prefer that to believing I'm going to hell and not giving a crap, but then, if they're going to do that then I might make it my mission to save them from having to believe in hell. That's where I get into trouble, because I usually just end up pissing them off. It's hard to point up the stupidity of the beliefs without implying the stupidity of the person holding them. Anyway I thought I might ask the folks in the Taoist section what they think about it all.
What about love thy neighbour? or do unto other as you would have them do unto you? or the kingdom of heaven is within us? Hell is only one part of Christianity and hardly the most important or oldest part of it. In fact it is commonly believed that hell was a later addition from the Idea's of Zoroaster, a Persian prophet. P.S. this really should be in the Christianity forum and (although it is your choice) find writing in black and red really detracts from your argument, it is hard to read and looks silly.
Christianity has many great beliefs, Jesus is love. You can believe whatever you want but that is true.
Yes I think if you cut away all the nonsense you would have a nice collection of wisdom. It's an addition, I'm sure. And it may be only one part, but it's too atrocious to not be important. Actually I wanted to hear from some people who are into Taoism like me. I already know what most of the christians would have to say. And here you are. No red. I thought it was pretty and would make it easier to read by deviding paragraphs, but I spose it might be a strain on the eyes.
Probably it isn't only Christianity which you might not like very much - I'd suggest that probably you would tend to reject the ideas of most of what we can call orthodox or popular religion. As regards the born-again brigade, I would agree that they are simply brainwashed. There is very little in the way of actual spiritual experience to be had from shallow and over-constructed belief systems such as they hold to. Mainly it's all based on fear and ignorance. However - within the broader Christian traditions are also other aspects. Both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have long established mystical traditions which tend to have far more depth and substance than pop christianity. See for example the works of Thomas Merton, a Catholic monk who went deeply into Zen and Taoist teachings. It is quite possible that the way in which the evangelicals etc interpret the scriptures (ie as literal truth) is entirely wrong. That is my opinion anyway. What they practice is not genuine Christianity. Jesus Christ was, as I have pointed out before in this forum, a person who embodied to a very high degree every one of the virtues extolled in the I Ching - probably the oldest surviving Taoist work we posess. In China there is much superstitous nonsense which is regared as broadly 'Taoist'. It has little to do with the philosophical side of it such as expressed in Tao Te Ching or Chang Tzu. It is propbably on about the same level as modern popular christianity. As for judging others because of their beliefs, I can only quote "forgive them for they know not what they do". As to God judging sinners - the universe itself judges them. That's why this is such a screwed up and unhappy planet. If you go against the flow of Tao you will suffer. Perhaps there is some esoteric connection here with the idea of the 'wrath of God'.
This is all true. Buddhism also has it's exoteric religion with a cosmology very similar to popular christianity. It's just christianity that dominates the culture I live in so it's christianity that bugs me. But I don't blame or judge people for believing what they do so long as they aren't hurting anyone. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Ijust feel like trying to "talk some sense into" people sometimes, but I know that what is so clear to me is as foggy to them as whats clear to them is foggy to me. The Tao Te Ching says that a follower of Tao never argues. But when I argue the point it doesn't argue, so....(bad joke) Anyway, I guess I just feel like if someone tries to save me from going to hell, they are, in a way, asking me to try to save them from believing in hell. I don't know how much sense that makes though.
i'd like to share some of my thoughts that rose with reading these lines. you can't save people from their own ignorance, you can only hope they once will see where you come from. I think the best way to do this is to be a good example of what you are preaching, be the change, that kind of stuff. also you can argue with people, but since pissing them of or being pissed of won't make this world a better place you should always try to be respectful and not be 'right'. you are not, the other one is not, but you both have opinions. if the other person tries to convince you and you want to be right just to prevent that from happening, let go of the ego, its not that important. if this seems like a giant preach, it's not. it's how I ('d like) to deal with these kind of situations
No, it's not a giant preach rainbowedskylover, you're absolutely right. People are not likely to hear what contradicts their beliefs no matter how logical the contradictions might be. People cling to religion because they aren't ready to look for other answers. And if they aren't ready, they aren't ready. I don't generally tell people what to do or how to live their lives, so practicing what i preach is the easy part. But i do need to stop criticizing Christianity. It seems like the conversation is always someone talking 2 me about why they are Christians, which is ok, ...boring, but ok, then when i try to explain why i'm not a Christian, their feelings get hurt and i'm the bad guy. I think i just need to adopt a policy of not discussing religion or spirituality with anyone who is attached to any one religion or belief system.
It can be very difficult to talk to others about one's spiritual path (I don't say 'beliefs') because often they are closed minded because of many different factors. In the case of Christianity, many of its followers tend to be closed to the notion that any other system can have any real validity - the thing tends to be exclusivist in nature. Often, Christians are not really people who are attuned to, or seeking attunement to what is within. Rather, it is an external thing, often in fact yet another manifestation of the herd mentality. Not that I'm saying ALL Christians are that way, but I am afraid the majority do seem to be. People will often cling to their beliefs because they've been deeply conditioned. I have had personal experience of this in my own life. But if one's agenda is simply more of the same - ie to repeat what past generations have done, and cleave to exactly the same belief stsystem as gandma and gandpa, there is clearly no motive to seek to un-do the conditioning. The problem is that some of these people have convinced themselves that they 'know', whilst in fact they're only repeating what has been put into them. Another big aspect with Christianity seems to be the emotionalism which is often about the only thing behind the 'deeply held convictions' of some Christians. That's in fact one of the biggest barriers to meaningful communication with them, let alone getting them to accept any criticism or consider that other forms of spirituality may have validity or be potentially useful to them. It seems to me that in a lot of cases the mind is clouded by emotion. That said, I'm sure that there is some validity in Christianity, but it is deeply buried, and seemingly the property of a few mystics only.
Yeah. True story. Living in such a Christianity dominated culture as the US is makes it hard to be anything but Christian and not be seen as morally inferior in some way by most people, and then to say something that questions the validity of Christianity makes me pretty much in bed with the devil.
If you want to see where the Christian attitude of the superiority of their beliefs, simply look at Christian history. When there were disagreements on the nature of Jesus or any other subject, one view point was held as "orthodox" (true) and the opposing belief as "heresy." For example, Augustine believed the idea that man was stained with sin after The Fall and man could no longer chose good, while Pelagious believed man had complete free will to chose good over sin. The church adopted Augustine's belief and Pelagious and his followers were heretics. Christians marginalized each other when there was ANY difference in belief. Even Eastern Orthodox was seen as heretical and the leader was excommunicated from Rome. This is why Christianity has such difficulty accepting other religions/philosophies- they couldn't accept any different view point w/in their own religion! Having a historical understanding of Christianity, one can see this attitude is tied to the beginning of the Church when Constantine adopted Christianity. More and more Christians are breaking from this attitude, but we should not expect ALL Christians to abandon a thousand plus year mind frame w/o some hesitation. After all, does the ego like to admit it is wrong? No, the ego's identity is tied to being right, and the collective ego of the Church has always declared itself to be right. You, however, have the power to recognize your ego in conflict w/ the Christian ego, and therefore, control your own reactions. Good luck! Peace and love
all chauvanism of belief buggs me, because what is belief after all but speculation? christianity and islam are of course the worst offenders, and in this, christianity may be the worst of the two. there is some chauvanism in some other beliefs as well, but nowhere near on the scale of those two. and its such a shame really, because like all beliefs, there is some good in them, what would quite possibly be a great deal without it. =^^= .../\...
I grew up in the Bible belt, so I have seen both the good and evils that can come from Christianity. If Christians actually followed Jesus's teachings, I think we would all get along nicely. It's the evangelical message I can't stand personally...and that being born into sin part...etc. About 4 years ago I realized that my whole life I was a 'natural Taoist' of sorts. This made me very happy and suddenly all the pieces started to fall into place. My husband considers himself a fundamental Christian. I know what you're thinking...how on earth could those two get along? He thinks he's right...and I know I am too. But part of Taoism as I see it is to be open, you can always learn things from others. By clinging to one school of thought or one religion we can miss out on a lot. We get along because we can talk about the similarities between the two...and we can agree to disagree about the rest. I wish I could get along with all Christians that way....I have no problem with them and will respect their beliefs as long as they respect mine. Start talking about my 'salvation' and I'm out the door... Why worry about the splinter in your neighbor's eye when there's a board in your own?...or something like that...
