Why the Christian/Judeo/Islamic God?

Wahey, the 'massive improbability argument'! Think about it this way my friend, look at a lump of rock, I assume you believe it is made up of millions and millions of molecules right?

Okay, take a tiny chunk of that, say only 100 molecules. Now whats the chance of that very top right molecule being in that exact position? 1/100, now whats the chance of the 1st and 2nd ones being in their positions? 1/100 x 1/100 = 1/10000 ...1st 2nd 3rd ...1/1000000...1st 2nd 3rd 4th? 1/100000000...1st 2nd 4th 5th...1/10000000000. Starting to look rather bloody improbable isn't it? And bear in mind we're now at the 5th out of one hundred, in a slice of a tiny lump of rock with millions and millions of molecules.

So I guess by your random made up statement that mathematicians dismiss 10^50 chances as never happening then rock NEVER HAPPENS!!!

Secondly, hate to become the militant atheist here but the sooner creationism is laughed of the map the better. But you cannot seriously pretend that you have probability on your side can you? You're bringing to the table the idea that a magical omnipotent, omniscient, everlasting being magicked the universe out of nothing. God is not a solution to improbability, it just multiplies it a billionfold.

 

Ho-ho! I'm afraid you are only pointing to uniqueness of this given peace of rock. That's different; I agree with you that everything is unique.
But we are talking about the probability compared with the way things happen in the world known to us, mind you. Should learn more about what "probability" first. It is NOT unusual to see rocks. And it DOESN'T matter what particular molecules make a rock.
But it DOES matter what particular kind of molecules make a DNA, for they are particular kind of molecules. It must necesarily be , say,carbone, oxygen, etc , etc, in the particular order. We don't care what particular molecule of oxygen it would be, don't you see the point?

Not a "probability", man. I have the one and only reasonable and logical explanation to explain the things as we know them! The only explanation, I mean, which explains everything without self contradiction.
"Magical"? How much do you know about the world around you? Do you call "magical" everything that's beyond your grasp or information?

 

I agree rock also never just happens everything in the universe exists not because it just happened but because it was created.

Next you'll being telling us the probability of life occurring spontaneously doesn’t matter no matter how improbable it is, because here we are so it must have happened.

One person reasoned that given a universe where life could exist and given enough time life would have to come into existence and evolve. Sounds good but fails to take into account that a universe where life could exist is not necessarily a universe where life spontaneously coming into existence is a possibility. You see sustaining life and life spontaneously arising take two entirely different circumstances and seem be mutually exclusive. Thus life could be sustained after it’s creation but would never have the conditions for spontaneous life generation without killing the very life it had just formed.

Evolution is an old idea from the time man knew very little of the science of life thus it was easy to believe that it all started with a simple one cell animal. As man has come to realize there are no simple one celled animals, in fact man continues to find that they are more complex the longer they study them. But science is stuck with this old concept of evolution and continues to try and put a square peg in a round hole. With a lot of forcing you can get it to work but it will never really fit.

PS You don’t seem to hate being a militant atheist at all, in fact you seem to enjoy it.

 

dude older waters you just dont realize that the whole chronology of the genesis account is just plain wrong. the bible got it wrong no matter how you spin it.

and yea chances are small that we have evolved from simpler life forms. but look at it this way: how many planets are there in the universe? and how many of them support life? so no matter how we happend, we somehow beat the odds. ok ok ill admit that this fact is miraculous, but you have to ask yourself: do you want to believe something something that relies on magic as an explanation or science, which doesnt have a deffinite answer, but tries to explain everyhting logically, backed up with evidence?
and you keep on saying these missing links dont exist, they are on display in museums around the world. look, fuck the missing links, just the fact that we found dinasour fissils should've dispelled all these bible beliefs.

and u think evolution is an old idea!

maybe some tidbits might be true by coincedence but how do you explain all the holes i poked in the genesis account. and that was just me, some bored kid with nothing but google and wikipedia. imagine how many errors the book really has if you look at it as a whole. were just discussing genesis and i successfully pointed out many errors which nobody has come close to correcting yet, imagine how many errors the whole book has.

this story just has too many errors for a logical person to believe.

 

You have a God.

It's name is CHANCE.

 

Did you even bother to read what I posted or did you just assume it had to be wrong?

The chances are not only more than the number of planets in the entire universe the chances are greater than the number of atoms in the universe, so your going to have to come up with a few more planets if your figures are ever going to work out. And no we did not "beat the odds" we were created.

If we’re going to depend on miracles I think I’d rather depend on God, the father of miracles, than depend on mankind, If you don’t mind. Just looking at some of mankind’s “miracles” around us I don’t think mankind can survive many more such "miracles", much less even get himself out of the mess he got himself into.

What makes you so sure that these “Missing Links” are what they say they are, the size of the head and different tooth shapes? Come on, I have three brothers and I’m a foot taller than all of them and none of us look alike, am I to believe that evolution has taken place between me and by brothers? No, there is just genetic variance in the human genome, some are tall, some short, some big, some small, some blue eyes, some brown, some blond hair and some no hair at all but they are all human. If you were able to transport a pigmy back in time and leave his skeleton to be dig up 5000 years later, scientists would be saying look the missing link but it wouldn’t be true.

Yes, it is. It is old and worn out and no longer fits with what science has found and should be thrown on the trash heap of useless ideas.

If you had actually read my posts instead of dismissing them out of hand, you would have seen that it’s your misunderstanding of the Genesis account that is in error not the Genesis account itself. The Genesis account fits quite nicely with the discoveries of modern science.

 

Really? i would like to challenge that claim.

heres a news article, published TODAY (cant get more modern than that) on fox news.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,391682,00.html

notice that the article states the earth's age, which does NOT fit so nicely with the young earth/ genesis theory (if you can call it a theory).

it also states TWO other possibilities that have nothing to do with intelligent design. the first being the primordial soup of precursor chemicals theory, and another being the panspermia theory.

 

Thanks for the link, IMjustfishin.

here we go:

Plain truth as stated above in the probability discussion.

They they say: "It may have been sufficient enough to generate more complex organic molecules that eventually have rise to life..."

So what they are saying here is, that they suspect they've found a clue as to what particular circumstances could have been needed in order to make the creation of proteins possible.
Well. We must honestly agree with them researchers, that those proteins needed some special environment and exact conditions to happen; our point here was just "HOW could it happen so???". The probability of this happening by chance is 0,0000....%
Say it again: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THIS HAPPENED MERELY BY CHANCE.
...
then given you have all these conditions we were just talking about, something should have triggered the needed reactions (we don't yet know which kind of reactions) and control the development of these reactions, still unknown to us, in a way that it would lead to the creation of the protein molecule. And then 1999 of other kind of proteins needed, as simple as that!!

Now what was that "something" that created the conditions needed for these reactions, then triggered the reactions and then controlled the production process?
In the chemical laboratory these are done by THE STUFF, right?
Accordingly we believe, that the "miraculous"(wonderful, amazing) reactions that created proteins and DNA and life, were also prepared and controlled by The Stuff. Just that simple.
As we already stated, chances that these needed conditions"just happened" and then the needed reactions "just happened" and that they "just happened" to go the way it would lead to the creation of life -- are next to zero percent. The probability, that a living cell would "just get formed" by chance from all these proteins and DNA (that just got formed by chance) is much much colser to zero, as it is easy to see.

So, is it a superstition to believe in "intelligent design and control" in situations and conditions, where things just cannot be explained otherwise?
From the standpoint of common sense, it is just merely scientific. It is also called an intellectual honesty.

 

hey the article is not titled "hey we discovered how life started!" it merely supports OTHER theories. speaking of intellectual honesty, if a bunch of scientists (who i sure know more than me or you about this field) published this article saying they have a theory of how life began, you should at least admit that its possible, i mean where did you pull that number from? site your sources (unless of course you pulled out of your a$$!)


ok, well check this out:

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/20020802a.html

just so u know what the article is about im gona quote the first paragraph:

really has nothing to do with this debate but interesting to see how bacteria can "happen" without the help of god.

 

Once again please my read the posts before you comment on them! Better yet; seeing as you are too, for want of a better word, lazy to go back and find my post and read it I’ll repost it.

So you see, no matter what age they guess the earth to be it could be that old according to the Bible, simply because the Bible states the earth existed before the 7 “days” that God got the earth prepared for mankind.

Also notice the term that you use; possibilities, that is the best mankind can up with is possibilities, because even if mankind was able to come up with some kind of proto-life in a test tube, even that would have been done under the most exacting laboratory conditions by outside intelligence and not in some primordial soup by random chance!

 

Why do you assume it would have to "happen" without the help of God?

 

wow older brother. so i guess your right no matter what! cant argue with you then. a perfect example of the kind of logic used by creationists, lol.iggy:

yes everything i say is theories and possibilities. what i am trying to show is alternatives to creationism which are more likely the cause for humans on this earth.

also, remember that the bible was also written by mankind, and mankind during the time it was written had a much more primative understanding of how the universe works, so you have to assume that your book is as much a theory as the big bang, evolution etc.

 

Okay, I’m right no matter what.

Now will you please actually look at what I’ve said?

I merely stated that the earth was, according to Gen.1:1, created at the same time as the rest of the universe. So that means no matter what you or scientists say the age of the universe or the earth is the Bible agrees or at least doesn’t disagree because the Bible does not give an age to the earth or the universe.

Oh by the way, I don’t consider myself a creationist, so if you’re talking about my logic, no, it’s not an example of creationist logic.

More likely? More likely? What makes them more likely? Because you say so? Because some guy in a white lab coat says so?

Be honest now, the only reason people consider these things even remotely possible is that they believe that God does not exist and therefore what we see must have got here some other way.

No, I don’t have to remember or assume anything of the kind.

See, you’re speaking from the stand point that there is no God but I don’t have to agree with you!

You see, I can believe that the Bible was written by the hand of God through men and also believe that God has a far, far better understanding of how the universe works than mankind including scientists will ever have. In fact the Bible itself is pretty good evidence of that.

 

Yes, and their "primitive understanding" only effected the way God decided to reveal the truth to them. He didn't give a lot of complicated stuff; however, the "primitive" descriptions God gave to the Bible writers are again and again found very correct by the modern scientists. Especially if the latter aren't biased by the evolutionism mythology.

The prophecies of the Bible -- is another feature of this book to show its divine origin.
20-th century was the time of exposure of religion as the strongest system of exploitation of men by other men. The exposure is so strong! In countries like Russia, China and others, religion had a strong fall after the Russian revolution of 1917. In the west religions fare none the better. Pedophile exposures of the priests -- Catholic church is getting exhausted financially by the court expenses with these cases.

What would you say if you could see these events long predicted in the Bible book of Revelation? That it contains a very clear prophecy about the end of all false religions at the end of it? Do you know any other religious book to predict such things?
Doesn't seem logical: a religious book should speak about the end of ... religions. But it does. The message is, that the true God will not continue forever putting up with lies and religions that misrepresent him.

 

In order for this friendly debate to fair, im going to to paste the scripture in question. I am going to be using the New International Version of the Bible, as it is the default of BibleGateway.com's Bible passage lookup, and can be found on the website:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis 1;&version=31;

so here it is the passage in question Genesis Chapter 1:

The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.



Now lets examine verse 2, it describes earth as being dark and empty. This tells us that there was no sun, and therefore, the earth was created before the sun, according to genesis.

There is also another error in this verse and that is the mention of water because as you know, water would be frozen solid without the heat of the sun.

also, you will notice that the sun and moon are only created after the third day, which is puzzling because there was evening and morning a couple of times prior to this.

now, if the bible is as true as you say it is, there should be an explanation for this inconsistency, so what is it?

 

You didn't really read what OlderWaterBrother posted earlier.
The Bible, as you can see even in this translation, DIDN'T say "God CREATED moon and sun in order to shed light upon earth".
It was dark upon the surface of the earth. Because of mist and clouds surrounding the earth. Then God changed it so , that light could become visible upon the surface of the earth.
Really, OlderWaterBrother posted much. But if you read it carefully, you will find a good commentary on every "day" of creation. All your questions will be answered.

 

ok aguest correct me if im wrong but verse 16 says:

according to genesis he made the two great lights after the third day.

also note that modern science has shown that earths atmosphere was mostly carbon dioxide, water vapor, methane, and amonia for about a hundred million years, it was only when earths surface changed from molten rock to solid rock did water begin to be condensed into liquid. u said before that the genesis account should 'fit nicely' with the findings of modern science so how do you explain these inconsistencies?

 

I have never read so much BULL SHIT in my entire life. You haven't backed up a damn thing here and you never refuted anything he said. Evolution is worn out? HA!!!! Genesis is correct?? HA HA!

Chances of life on other planets being greater than all the atoms in the universe? HA HA HA!!!! Back up your data or get off my thread. You made the claims, back it up!!!!!!!!!

 

Well, it says as early as on the first day, that "light came to be". That is , light became visible on the surface of the earth.
This time, after the third day, the sources of light also became visible. I know, you would give a different meaning to the words "God made".

In case of the Bible we are not only dealing with a text, translated from Hebrew. It is also a writing of God's thoughts by a man Moses (in Genesis). You can see it all over the Bible: sometimes the prophets would write God's words directly, when so commanded. At other times they would write in their own words the thoughts inspired by God.
Moses had never been a fluent speaker, according to his own words. But God chose him for some other qualities present in him: humility, honesty, courage and trust in God. It is a good thing in the Bible: written by different men with different types of personalities, coming from different backgrounds.

So, what? Study of this part of the Bible gives us much more, than some basic (and still definite and precise!) information about the formatin of the earth.
It also tell us much about God and how he delegates important tasks to men, who may not be considered brilliant by other men.
He delegated such important task as the writing of some parts of his word to a man, who wasn't so brilliant at literature. Such parts as would for a long time be used by all people as God's Word! What counts with the God of the Bible is faithfulness, obedience, humility, honesty and trust in Him. Why is it good for us to know?
He judges about us not according to our inborn capabilities, but more according to such qualities as everyone can develop in himself, if he wants. Today's most talented businessmen and managers do the same thing! Obviously, then, God's mind is not so difficult for us humans to understand. And that's a good and useful thing to know.

I must also repeat it, few people would use the Bible as a scientific account about the Universe.
Maybe you will like Einstein better; however, the scientists , who could give much more detail to the structure of our Universe, time-space continuum and suchlike stuff, have enjoyed the Bible for the real pearls of wisdom they could not find in other books.

 

Here is the back up.

Needless to say, neither you , nor me did ever count the number of all atoms in our universe. But, frankly, such precision is not even needed.
We can put it much simpler.
Do you have a coffee machine, or blender, or juicer -- any of these machines , that can be disassembled easily into some 4 or 5 components?
You can, then, try the origins of evolution theory with your own bare hands. Just put the disassembled parts of the juicer into a bucket, and then start shaking the bucket chaotically in all directions. What are the chances those 4 parts of the juicer will get assembled together into a juicer from your shaking the bucket?...
So, the probability of the origin of life as presented by the evolutionists is countless times less than that!