Though perhaps more aptly referred to as The Naturalist verses the Super-Naturalist. I am looking for a general index of what this forum thinks. The question I ask is simple, but when put simply, it becomes complicated. For example, I could ask whether or not you believed in realities other than this one, but if you believed the other realities were real, they would essentially be part of reality and there is only one reality, which encompasses all things real. In a similar way, the Naturalist/supernaturalist division is ambiguous because surely many of those believing in 'supernatural' things would say that those things were definately not unnatural! So I hope I can make it clear what this poll is about. I could ask whether or not you believe in the supernatural, ie. things not governed by physical forces. but then we must ask what is physics? physics is just our understanding of certain forces that we observe. We imply with physics that these forces are bound and unchanging and are not determined by will. Since there is always more to be descovered, our physical models of the universe will always leave parts of reality unaccounted for, and as far as our 'physical sciences' go, we must necessarily believe in things that are 'beyond physics'. but perhaps I could ask: Do you believe all physical states can theoretically be related through physics? This is perhaps the best way of putting it, because things that are mysical and otherworldly do not universely influence the universe. they cannot be detected or measured or even reasoned with in terms of a determinate physical system. This is not a matter any of us can know about. This is a matter we have faith in. So I do not want you to write what you think is likely or what you would like to think is the case, but simply which stance you live your life by, which position you generally revert back to when it comes down to your words and/or actions. The relevance of this poll to this topic involves the question of whether or not psychedelics can open us up to realms or forces or spirits/entities that exist beyond our 'normal' realm, or whether the brilliant experiences we find on psychedelics are influenced by the very same things as any other mind-state, but are percieved in a different way. so, do you believe psychedelics can give us the ability to percieve more things in the world (and possibly in more ways), or the ability to percieve the very same things but in more ways? by things i mean matter, energy, and any other sort of force or substance. NOTE: You can still be spiritual and a Naturalist! For example, men like Michael Faraday, one of the leading scientists in the electrical and magnetic fields of study, believed the bible to the word. However, they believed that God's world was structured with rigid laws that man could descover. Almost all of the most influential Scientists/Natural Philosophers before the 1850's held a view of this sort, and they would vote 'Naturalist' in this poll despite believing in higher powers that may be considered supernatural.
I am both, sometimes I feel it splits my personality in two. But I agree with everything in that post.
But I dont quite see how you can be a fence sitter on this issue other than to refrain from tagging yourself as either way. This sort of distinction is fundamental to the majority of all matters in the world! But hey, I cant force you to have an oppinion, only ask that you aknowlege the anonymity of this poll and post what you feel most deeply describes your stance, if you can.
Well while I do have my own way of observing reality and my own way of meditating on it, I also see the act of thinking as an screen that prevents one from truly experiening reality. Which of course is not always something negative, we all have to watch our thoughts and opinions go by in order to come to terms with our existence. However that being said, I would in this case have to represent myself as a mystic only because the scienticst tends to be as bad as a religious man, in matters of having an open mind and a sense of peace and understanding of things which really matter, such as empathy or providing necessity in order to improve life as it is now. There's always exceptions of course but Im pointing out the majority here. A religious man will promise you that his sect will hand over eternal life or salvation, and a scientist will dish out the same empty promises regarding comprehension. Both are incomplete and subject to much change. When you take psychedelics, I believe it requires an approach from both angels. The science of math can help understand the process of life and reveal much about it during a trip, much of our visuals are geometric and our consciousness expands to encompass more than we can accept during sobreity. But although LSD has a very 'fine edge' approach to the brain, magic mushrooms are the complete opposite in that sense where your vision and consciousness and even bodily sensations become like a transparent fluid is superimposed over everything. Now I wonder how we can arrogantly pretend that we know anything about what is going on here? Wether scientifically with measurement and comparison or with equally blind religious dogma. The world accepted as incontrovertible fact that light traveled in directly geometrically straight lines until Einstein's theory that light bends around heavy bodies by photographing stars behind the Sun during a total eclipse. So obviously our understanding of Nature's laws are no where near solid and anything which claims to be so is surely blind to reality. Reality is entirely subjective, time, space, light, etc. these all are bent and distorted and our perception of such things is in no way definitive outside of our limited capabilities. Where I stand is that I dont know anything other than what I perceive directly, and I perceive such things as the Sun and Nature as well as an awareness that is transcendental to every'thing' I experience through the sense organs. The idea that intelligence is brought about by a certain maturity of chemicals and matter over a long period of time just does not make sense, and is no where near being proven. Some day this will be proved, some day we will create life without utilizing pre existing tools, some day we will reverse the aging process, someday etc etc until it happens hold your breath and learn to be humble, is what I say. God Bless -
Anyway the problem is that before Religion had no appeal because to deviate would bring eternal damnation, and now science has taken it's place in that to deviate is to be branded as insane. Both are stupid, if you ask me. Your own mind will lead you to your heart, and the truth is burning away with an invisible flame in the center of your being. The truth is within you, and the world is leaning in the direction of forcing us away from exploring our own nature.
Probably not 'everything' can be described by physics. But surely much, much much more. There is big hole between science and religion but that empty space can be discovered and still waits for future generation to be explored. But some bridges starting to appear. In physics be have 4 main states of energy: gravitation, electricity, small and heavy force. In religions: earth, fire, wind and water. Various states of those energies. Science no long negates existence of ghosts, telepation but takes this as not fully discovered parts of real world. Between science and religion we see trust arising. Some spiritual human forces can be observed and identified: this year Japanese build machine that can show on the screen what one imagine in his head. It becomes real picture on the screen! LSD? And exploration of inner cosmos? If you're very lucky but also prepared to spiritual travel this work like a catalyst - but it only helps the vision - you are creating it. If you are full with fear - it will emphasize it and so on...
