An effect of the ego

I have been tackled and amazed at what I have read by Atheistic and science-based people. They seem to believe that the presence of God is a desire that we have "made up" in our heads because our brains are too powerful to accept any less explanation. How can this be...could this be an effect of the ego? Buddha and great Hindu sages have ended desires and suffering in their life to attain supreme consciousness, but God was still there for them and they understood what God was. I just don't understand this prospect. With all of these extreme opinions, it is so hard to stay stable with any belief!!! I have read things that have completely shattered me these past few days, but I am still hanging on to my beliefs, I just don't understand how something as such can be real. I just think that religion and science must go hand-in-hand. If our minds cannot be correct then our scientific calculations cannot be correct either. If we cannot feel what is real by meditation or clear-mindedness, then it cannot be proven by tools. Can anyone relate to me on this?

Ben.

 

Firstly, I'd just like to say that you are right - religion and science must go hand in hand. The truth of spirituality should not contradict scientific knwledge. But it is important to discriminate what is and what isn't 'scientific truth'. Science has not disproved the existence of an eternal spirit, even if some scientists like to believe it has.
As for the God being a kind of egoistic reaction to the problems we face, this view is just another mental formulation. It takes no account of spiritual experience. It is based more or less on rationalism, which believes that the only knowledge is that of the discursive intellect, based on logic.
There is also the question of mind and consciousness. The mind is not the consciousness, only one of its vehichles. If we think the two are one and the same thing, then we are effecively caught up in the mind's endless wanderings. No mental formulation can cover the whole truth, because the nature of the intellect is to look only at a part, a limited aspect of reality, whilst God is the complete whole. The knowledge or jnana of the yogi or sage is on a plane higher than that of ordinary mind.
But I'd be interested to know what you have read that has led to this doubt.

love & peace.

 

Thank you, BlackBillBlake. Your post was very relieving. Well, if you want to take a look at some of the things that I have read, then just go to the Agnosticism and Atheism section of the forums. There you can see where I have tried to put my input in a couple of the threads. Thanks again for your insight. We have similar thoughts

Om Namo Narayanaya,
Ben.

 

Dear Ben,
I've looked over all that stuff in the past, but to tell the truth, I see little to be gained by engaging in these disputes over the existence or non existence of God or spirit or whatever. The thing is, I doubt if any sceptic would give up their position as a result of anything they might read in these forums! And the reverse is equally true. Those with faith will go on with their faith!
Its better in my opinion to try to nourish oneself on positive ideas and spiritual teachings, and really not to get tied up in trying to prove anything by purely intellectual means.
What I'm trying to say is that you have to protect your own consciousness to some extent by simply not opening the door to unfavourable ideas, forces etc.

Om Shanti!

BBB.

 

Thanks, BBB. That's great advice... It is a lesson that I have yet to learn. It is an argument that will never cease to exist on this Earth, I suppose.

Om Mani Padme Hum

Peace,
Ben.

 

Check out, "The Field; The search for the secret force of the universe by Lynne McTaggart"


Here is the description from amazon.com

"From Publishers Weekly
McTaggart, an investigative journalist (What Doctors Don't Tell You), describes scientific discoveries that she believes point to a unifying concept of the universe, one that reconciles mind with matter, classic Newtonian science with quantum physics and, most importantly, science with religion. At issue is the zero point field, the so-called "dead space" of microscopic vibrations in outer space as well as within and between physical objects on earth. These fields, McTaggart asserts, are a "cobweb of energy exchange" that link everything in the universe; they control everything from cellular communication to the workings of the mind, and they could be harnessed for unlimited propulsion fuel, levitation, ESP, spiritual healing and more. Physicists have been aware of the likelihood of this field for years, McTaggart writes, but, constrained by orthodoxy, they have ignored its effects, which she likens to "subtracting out God" from their equations. But, McTaggart asserts, "tiny pockets of quiet rebellion" against scientific convention are emerging, led by Ed Mitchell, an Apollo 14 astronaut and founder of the Institute for Noetic Sciences, an alternative-science think tank. McTaggart writes well and tells a good story, but the supporting data here is somewhat sketchy. Until it materializes, McTaggart may have to settle for being a voice in the wilderness."


In essence, all those miracles that Buddha, Jesus, the great saints, babas, gurus, and what not performed are now possible in a scientific sense.

Duh, God is so playful and so wonderful, that she is allowing science to begin to get a glimpse at her possibilities!

We live in a wonderful time!

Check out http://www.noetic.org/


Science and religion do go hand in hand, but these scientists are not proving dogmatic beliefs of any of religion, they are proving what the mystics, the spiritual masters, these beings that have been into the deeper realms of experience, then tried to communicate it... Not the fundematalists that say, "oh MY (insert name of religion, sect, cult) is the ONLY way, you guys are (insert negative words that seperates). They have been across the ages, thier teachings are found in all religions... pointing towards a unity of religion, that goes right to the heart of the spiritual quest.

I say, forget your beliefs... Have faith in your own experience. Go within, and the secrets and beauty and wonder, and mysteries of the universe will be whispered with love into your ear... Soon your faith will be based upon what you have SEEN and FELT and EXPERIENCED, rather then what you have READ or BEEN TOLD.

 

Just need to be clear that no-one is saying here that there is only one way, certainly, thats not my own intention.
Where beliefs are concerned, they can be useful if they help one approach the goal - the experience and direct seeing you speak of. And in turn, this seeing may lead to expanded beliefs - confirmation of what is true belief, and what is false.

Om Shanti.

 

Hari Om Ben!

What you mean is that they experienced the supreme conciousness, which IS what hinduism speaks of as god, eternal, infinite, one without a second, all encompassing, ever blissful brahman.

When there is a contradiction before you, it is because of your intellectual failure to understand the truth (or lack thereof) behind the two conflicting statements. Therefore, you must think, logically analyse your doubt and try to clarify it by rational processes.

Science, as it stands today, is limited to the sphere of experience and perception of the mind. Since this is limited, the laws of science are also limited. But when a higher law comes into force, then the lesser laws are over ruled. That is why we see so many paranormal phenomena that science is at a loss to explain, they directly contradict the laws laid down by our physicists and chemists and mathematicians. These phenomena follow some higher law of which we dont have the knowledge yet.

In meditation we try rise beyond the mind level, to the level of supreme conciousness. At that higher level, our limitations are also reduced, so intuitively we feel and experience things which are beyond the scope of the mind and intellect. Therefore, what we feel during meditation, cannot be proven by tools. That is because the truth of experience is something far subtler than anything the tool can measure or display.

yato vacho nivartante, aprapya manasa saha.
- taittriyopanishad
That from which speech recoils, that is beyind the reach of the mind.

That ultimate truth, the supreme conciousness, cannot be reached or described in words, therefore it is not possible to deal with it on a mental, intellectualand logical level. It is beyond all this. However, logic, thought and word can take us close to the truth, indicating it, as pointers.


I hope this helped.

Your own Self,

Bhaskar

 

Thank you, Bhaskar. Things are getting better. I have just had a hard time lately. I try to take it one day at the time though. That book sounds really cool, GanjaPrince. Thanks for telling me about it...I just might buy that.

I do appreciate your posts, guys. Things are getting better, day by day....

Om Namo Narayanaya

Ben.

 

Dear Bhaskar,

I think there is some contradiction in your statements. First, you seem to say we have to think things out - 'try to clarify your doubt by a rational process' But you then quite rightly go on to say afterwards, or at least to imply, that no such final solution can or does exist on a rational level. If I'm right in my understanding of your words, I agree - the Truth cannot be grasped or formulated by the mind alone, certainly not on the level of the discursive reason.
It has to be experienced, and the experience is on a plane above that of ordinary mind. In the west, this type of knowledge has been refered to as 'Gnosis', a concept identical to the sanskrit Jnana. Ideas can help us to move towards this experience, but the experience itself is the essential thing.
Until we have this direct experience of the Divine, we have to have faith; that is the thing that can really support us much more than mere intellectual ideas.
Faith that the Divine exists and that we can come to know this existence, and more than that, faith that the Divine is an existence of Bliss, Love and Knowledge. Faith also in the processes of Yoga!
If we just waste our time in endless mental disputes over the existence or inexistence of God (and please understand Bhaskar, I'm sure you don't do this, I'm just seeking here to address the original question Ben posed) we are not very likely to get far on any path of yoga. The yogi, or aspirant, or sadhaka, has to just accept and have faith that the Divine is real, is the Master of the Yoga, and in due course, some realization comes! By God's grace.

Blessings

 

im just trying to be helpful. There's an online book i'm in the process of reading, that so far has helped my perception, and answered some of my spiritual questions. it talks about the ecology of human beings in multidimensional space, the spiritual heart, on highest yoga, ect... if you have the time, i think it's worth looking at. http://www.religiousbook.net/Books/index.html

Love and Light

 

I would definetely look at the writings of Paramahansa Yogananda... esp. Autobiography of a Yogi...that book (I couldn't give it enough praise...I'm sure some of you are sick of hearing me gush over it...lol) talks a lot about the topics that you had mentioned and it made a lot of sense to me... it helped make sense of some of the loose things floating around in my mind...I hope it helps.


http://www.yogananda-srf.org

Haribol!

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

 

i'll check it out