drugs are now mainstream....

I have to agree somewhat as well. I believe a majority of drug users are not looking for enlightenment- they want their next fix, their next escape from reality, however they see it. I don't know of anyone who smoked weed for spiritual reasons. There were times when I smoked that I had spiritual realizations, but these occasions happened very rarely. Besides, most of the mind blowing realizations I had while on shrooms and stoned vanished once I came down. At first, I couldn't quite remember what I had been thinking and soon I couldn't recall anything. It's like having an amazing dream- after you wake up, you may remember it for a moment or two, but as the day begins, you forget about that dream. Very rarely can anyone recall all the details of a dream after they had been up for a few hours.

If one needs drugs to gain spiritual realization, then that person is relying on something external, which means that person is dependent on the external to experience the internal.

Peace and love

 

I dont NEED it to gain spiritual realization. I could try to manifest this in other ways. But I take the short cut. The end result probably isn't a good as the real thing, but hell, im only 18.

Everytime i blow my mind, it's like im tearing down another fucked up, hateful wall that my ego has build up. It's really lovely. There is no doubt in my mind that my drug use has made me a better person. Do I think LSD and other drugs are the ultimate answer to the mysteries that the Great All has to offer?

Not at all. but I do realize that it is a step in the right direction (for some, not all, to each their own), and an amazing tool.

 

HC - This is an interesting question.
When we say people shouldn't rely on external means, what exactly do we mean?
Where does internal end and external begin?

For instance, you could say that practicing meditation techniques is 'external' in the sense that usually the idea/method comes from 'outside'. Same with adherence to this or that set of beliefs or philosophy, or 'spiritual'practices. Most 'religious' ideas don't come to people from within, but from sources outside themself - 'outside' their own mind or body.

Going to a church or temple is certainly external, yet it isn't often one see's it criticized for that reason. Often where that is said to be external, all that is really proposed is a different external set of actions.

According to some Yoga teachings, (cf the Bhagavad Gita) the mind itself is 'external', in the sense that it is external to the inner being, the self, soul, atman - whatever name you like.

As usual this devolves to our particular understanding of language and the terms used.

 

Naw, obfuscation.

Drugs are material for one thing. For another, they cost money off the top and need to be constantly replaced or reinforced.

Thus they always must be considered first prior to the state of mind.

Looking back, I find the wisdom of an 18 year old about his betterment through chemistry suspect. What spiritual goal has he established in the first place, and what has he done to prove his meddle upon the stream of existance besides feel a little better through drug created mind modification?

My guess is nothing.

Noone is going to have the energy to create some sustained positivity as based in drug use alone because the next day there always is that smack oneself in the head and the WTF was I thinking?!

Drugs simply cannot equal calm abidance in spontaneous benevolence.

It's better to not be benevolent at all if you must do so through drugs because on drugs your very system of insights is as warped as the drug. Thus maybe on dope your idea of charity is passing a joint to a stranger.

 

Things is though, no that many people are 'spontaneously benevolant' because they've been brought up/educated/programmed into self-serving competitive ways of thinkng and acting by the culture in which they live.

I have said that I agree, there are definite drawbacks and even dangers with psychedelics - but I think they have a role to play in helping some people to break out of all that.
Once a person has had a glimpose that there is 'something else' that knowledge can never be entirely lost, even if it gets buried, it is sure to re-emerge in the future in one way or another.

Perhaps they'd be better off sheepishly following the conventions with which they've been stuffed by society?

When I first took lsd - over 30 years ago, I was a teenager with no spiritual goal, or even much interest. It was the acid experience that set me off looking into all of that, something which still goes on now, although I am not particularly interested on doing lsd these days.

On the 'material' question - the material is just the most outer layer of what is 'outside'.
Most methods of development will cost you money one way or another, whether it's buying books, paying for meditation lessons, retreats or whatever. Also, there are large numbers of false teachers and useless methods out there, and some have had their lives wrecked by following non-drug things like cults etc, whilst others who have used lsd have not had problems, even if some have.

 

Ultimately, one must look within to find the Divine.

Peace and love

 

Thats why mind has to be seen as external.

 

One could look upon drugs as a guide in this respect. On arrival at realisation, you have no more need for the guide. I'm sure that drugs just accelerate the process in some, allowing us to dismantle rigid belief systems and dissolve blocks in our psyche. Not a shortcut, just accelerated. Be careful not to crash.

Drugs are like all other things in life ... cars, houses, people, dinner on the table, medical care ect. From a purely spiritual perspective i don't need any of it so why would i partake of the experience? Because it's a joy. Isn't this why creation was created?
The good thing about drugs is that if we get stuck they can help us remember.

 

Best thing about drugs is they fuck you up. Then you can blame something besides yourself.

 

Chod says "Noone is going to have the energy to create some sustained positivity as based in drug use alone because the next day there always is that smack oneself in the head and the WTF was I thinking?!"

Ummm, I've hardly EVER gotten that feeling.
Sounds like you just had some shitty drug experiences.
(They aren't for everybody).

Personally, I've had various enlightening, mind-expanding, orgasmic, spiritual, fucking AMAZING experiences on drugs... But I guess those just aren't valid under your belief system. Too bad!

 

I agree with Adamist. Sorry you haven't had any good experiences.... some people just can't handle it...

 

Chod seems like a bitter old man whose mom was a crack-head or something.
Who knows where his grudge comes from?
He comes off as totally biased against drugs and those who use them.

Get real- some of the best minds of the past century used drugs... Many didn't,
but the point being that you can't make a sweeping generalization saying
"all drug users are ____."
That's just plain ignorant,
and you'd think someone as old as Chod would know that!

 

b

 

Very nicely put, Pixee..
and yeah I can actually imagine Richard Simmons as an old burned out hippie
in some twisted parallel universe!

15 is a good age to start experimenting, IMO.
That's about the age I started...

 

a

 

I think it all depends on the reasons you use the drugs. If it is just for fun then it fine occasionally, if it is for insight (Psychedelics) then it is also fine, but when people start abusing them and taking things all the time then that is when a problem comes in.

In today's society, kids need to be guided hand in hand, because as sad as it is our youth is dysfunctional. America is declining much as Rome did and we are now living in a hedonistic society. People just live for now and only live for themselves.

EDIT: Just a note I thought this thread had more to offer so that is why I bumped it.