Celibacy

Religion puts great emphasis on this so called virtue. Seldom has anyone been able to make it work without creating a perversion somewhere else.

You can't just say no. Its not a matter of will power.

Celibacy is a result, not a technique.

True celibacy only occurs when the desire itself has been unplugged. When you truly indentify with your spiritual higher self, the idea of gender evaporates, as does the attraction to it.

The next best path is to transmute the energy into another channel, and this is what several religions attempt to do.

Discuss.



x

 

i know some train kids vow celibacy . what happens when you get a baby ? no more hopping grainers . little pat , tho , went got a vasectomy . but then kiki kate who loved him most inherited 20,000 bucks and wanted some land and a baby .

 

I've tried it. 3 months is my record. It gets easier after the first few weeks, you really have to discipline your mind not to think about it. You need to get into a regular sleeping rhythm and eat properly. It just takes one restless night and next thing you are past the point of no return. It is good to eat lentils - monks have been known to eat lentils because it helps to lower your sexual drive. I practise it and smoke cannabis for exploring lucid dreams and astral projection, but I haven't for some time, my work schedule and stress and stuff means that I get a bit randy too often.

 

And what's the point of celibacy?

 

Freedom would be the real point. Freedom from entanglement.

But usually, its not something that comes to people from within, but because of external rules etc - as in the case of catholic clergy.

I don't think it's a 'virtue' - inplicit in that would be the idea that sex is somehow wrong or 'sinful'.

I am in agreement with xexon on this - the more you move out of the ego consciousness and into a spiritual consciousness, the less pull the sex impulse has, the less important it seems.

Probably age is a factor too - as one gets older there is a natural decline in sexual energy - and to be honest, it's a bit sad when you see men in their 60's who are still totally hooked on it and on the 'virility' game.

 

This is probably going to sound real stupid , but why do most religions preach celibacy when God himself commanded Adam and Eve to go forth and mulitply and replenish the Earth.....kinda goes against being celibate to have sex and make babies ?

 

Religious celibacy is based upon imitation, as are most things in religion.

They seek to become more godlike by imitating those who WERE godlike. And thats about as far as they'll get on the path. A cheap imitation.

Celibacy is admired because it is percieved to be an act of willpower. In reality, true celibacy requires no willpower, for the reasons I stated above.

I think its wrong to impose celibacy on a priest, a seeker, or anyone else. Its something that has to unfold naturally. Quit feeding the energy, it goes into remission on its own. You've undergone an inner transformation.

Force it by your will, its like a bull riding competition. It will be a constant struggle to maintain your balance.



x

 

Actually once you manage to go without jerking off (or fucking) for about 1 month, 6 weeks, you start to become remarkably balanced I assure you.

 

These are excellent points, and they raise a fascinating question: to what degree can spiritual development be facilitated by acts of willpower, restraint, or adherence to a structural framework? Clearly, unless the spiritual aspirant in question has a very unique path (Eckhart Tolle for instance, who realized enlightenment without even having heard of it), there is always some element of conscious intent involved. For example, a Zen monk relies on a particular technique (e.g. hara awareness) in order to transcend ego identification. Ultimately however, as with any technique, it's a case of utilizing effort in order to transcend effort -- the classic spiritual paradox. In essence, how is this any different from relying upon willpower to remain celibate?

It seems to me that the only truly natural unfolding process occurs following self-realization. Everything else has an element of contrivance involved.

So, ultimately, I agree with you Xexon -- authentic celibacy unfolds naturally. However, the catalysts that precipitate this natural unfoldment would almost always involve the exertion of willpower.

Travis

 

I recall a story from somewhere...about young seekers being like young trees. The need a fence around them in the beginning. But as they grow, you can take the fence away and they will stand on their own.

The idea must evolve on a mental level before it breeches the surface into physical action. You must build a mental framework to navigate with until you can see on your own.

Its only an exercise of willpower if you force it. If you approach it as one gently correcting the rudder on a ship, the passengers won't even notice.



x

 

Your story is a good metaphor for the type of "structural dependency" I was referring to initially. However, it doesn't really address any of my points, because the fence around the young trees could easily be analagous to exercising restraint in order to remain celibate. After the "trees grow", the individual could begin to experience an authentic detachment from their sexual impulses, or like you said initially, they could discover that the energy is being transmuted naturally.

As far as your assertion that willpower implies an act of "forcing it", I would definitely have to disagree. How is gently correcting the rudder of our proverbial ship not consistent with an act of willpower? You're simply quantifying the magnitude of the willpower being exerted.

Think about it this way: let's say I'm a person who's just been introduced to the idea of celibacy as a way to supplement my spiritual path. What would you recommend that I do in order to become "truly celibate"? If your answer involves any type of technique, practice, or methodological approach, then willpower must be involved. Like I said earlier, this is ultimately the same phenomenon as can be found in any spiritual practice: in some way, shape or form, effort (willpower) is being used to transcend effort.

Actually, there's a great metaphor for this phenomenon that I recall. It's like launching a space shuttle into outer space. In order to overcome the influence of earth's gravity (ego-identification), a space shuttle (spiritual aspirant) requires booster rockets (effort) in the initial phases of its journey. Upon crossing the outer atmosphere and reaching outer space (spirit), however, these rockets are jettisoned. Just as the shuttle is no longer dependent upon booster rockets, the individual is no longer dependent upon effort in order to experience spiritual communion -- or in this case, authentic celibacy.

Travis

 

The mind is the sole obstacle in the realization of "God".

Whatever path you choose to move it out of the way will have to employ willpower, because in the beginning, the mind is all you have to see with. You have to speak it's language. So the fence implies protection rather than restraint. Protection from outside forces, rather than the restraint of inner ones.

Things that now require willpower will be automatic later. Its because as you progress down a path and your perceptions widen, you learn to navigate better. You avoid obstacles for the simple fact you can see better than you used to.

Sure, you have freewill to run off the road, but if you can see the dangers in doing so, would you not be more inclined to stay on the straight and narrow?

Most people don't see very well. Got the world in their eye.

As for celibacy to supplement a spiritual path, depends on the individual. Its not going to work for most for the simple reason they're not done with the world yet. The attractions are too strong.

You have to come to a point where they begin to fall away. Then an attempt at celibacy might work. Like flight, there might be a few crash and burns before you become comfortable in that place.



x

 

This viewpoint only takes into account the vertical dimension of spiritual growth, when in actuality spiritual growth encompasses both a vertical and horizontal dimension (and I'm speaking of dimensions as they would be represented on a sheet of graph paper, not as in the 4th, 5th, and 114th dimensions). Yes, one's perceptions are enhanced by higher consciousness. However, unless ego-identification has been entirely transcended, those enhanced perceptions must now be applied to more subtle aspects of one's being, which requires a greater degree of impeccability and commitment then was required at earlier stages of the path. At lower levels of consciousness, a spiritual aspirant can get away with processing out only the fragmented aspect of their being that they happen to be identified with at the time. At later stages, they have inevitably undergone an intense process of integrating previously disparate elements of their psyche. As a result, they're required to devote greater and greater portions of their being to the process of purification, culminating ultimately with complete relinquishment of ego-identification. Therefore, there are elements of both greater and reduced difficulty inherent in spiritual development.

No, because awareness of "dangers" (which are all ultimately illusory) is fear-based, and fear ceases to be an effective motivating factor at higher levels of consciousness. All growth must ultimately be based on a consciously surrendering mentality (towards motivation) rather than a compulsion dictated by fear (away-from motivation). Not only is willpower important at later stages of the path, it's absolutely essential.

I agree on all of this. However, you must admit that these statements are somewhat less extreme then your initial ones. You are essentially conceding here that willpower and celibacy aren't mutually exclusive, which was all I was trying to point out.

Travis

 

I don't wish to get into deep waters over this. I strive to be simple as possible so that all can follow along.

When discussion turns into displays of mental horsepower, it creates a club of exclusivity that will only be attractive to scholars. I leave that to religion.

I want to be understood. The only way this is possible is through the simplicity that we all share on some level. Not many souls can have their mind in the clouds, but we all share the earth beneath our feet, so this is where I can be found.

A dirt farmer. Sowing a few ideas that might challenge your idea of things.



x

 

Fair comments, but if we all understood each other perfectly then what would be the point in talking about anything. I prefer to dress up what I am essentially saying in poetic expression, even if the way I say it then completely transcends the initial meaning altogether.

 

As you yourself have pointed out on multiple occasions, by definition not everyone can follow along. As you put it most recently, they simply have too much "world in their eye".

I'm no scholar, and I'm sorry if my post seemed pretentious or over-intellectualized. Honestly, I write almost exclusively stream of consciousness, and was only attempting to illustrate a very fundamental principle of spiritual growth. It's quite possible that my tendency towards verbosity undermined my intentions, and if that's the case, then I apologize. However, I can't help but notice that many of your responses to the issues I raise are subtly evasive. Perhaps you are avoiding an admission of your lack of understanding by accusing me of "displays of mental horsepower".

I'm always thrilled to have my ideas challenged. Can you say the same?


Travis

 

I often speak in generalizations. The reason being that much of what I talk about is individual to the observer. My experience with something is likely to be different than yours. Discussion helps us to compare notes.

I have no tongue for debate. Its an exercise of the mind and not the spirit.

Having ideas challenged is one thing, but there are spiritual truths which never change. Religions come and go as do their attempts at explanation of things. But in the end, they all discuss a handful of simple truths.

I try to keep it at that level where the waters run clear. When the mind toys with them, it becomes dirty and unclear.

I can reduce the teachings of Jesus to a 100 words. What future would Christianity have with people like me walking around?

None, I hope.


x

 

Then why dismiss my own experiences (which I shared in my earlier posts) with an assumption? It seems to me that such an act could only be indicative of an ego that's unwilling to be exposed to a viewpoint that's potentially threatening to its stability (and of course, an exposed ego can only be a good thing ).

That all depends on the intentions of the debators. If ego-aggrandizement through "outwitting" their "opponent" is the objective, then yes, debates are bound by conceptualization. However, if the individuals engaged in the debate prioritize the broadening of their perceptual horizons over ego-gratification, then debates can certainly be an exercise of the spirit. Zen buddhism understands this phenomenon perfectly -- they call it "dharma dueling".

Based on your responses, I can only assume that you're unwilling to find out what my actual intentions are. That being the case, which one of us is the one who is clinging to ideas? Which one is truly interested in conveying universal truth?

I can reduce them to three: Love. Love. Love.

Travis

 

I'd say I live a natural life of celibacy.

There's only 4 girls that I will have sex with during my life, already gone through 2, met my 3rd, waiting for my 4th.

I have no desire for physical pleasure out of sex, if I'm having sex, I want love to be involved, I want us to transcend during sex, use it for what it's meant for.

I am so glad I met this girl, we have a very strong spiritual connection. First time I've experienced it romantically. She's a virgin too, been waiting all her life for me. It's pretty sweet.

 

It seems to me that the only entrapment inherent in sexuality is sexual compulsion -- being enslaved by the impulses of one's sex drive.

In this thread's initial post, Xexon talked about being "unplugged" from the sex drive following the realization of one's true spiritual identity.

Personally, I doubt it works this way. Actually, if anything, I think being "unplugged" from one's sex drive would be indicative of some form of sexual repression.

Self-realization and transcendence of gender identification doesn't mean that we aren't still embodied in a physiological form. Enlightenment doesn't "short circuit" our instincts, it simply changes our relationship to them.

In all likelihood, an enlightened relationship to sexuality is similar to an enlightened relationship to the mind. Both can be applied (and no doubt enjoyed) if an appropriate situation arises, but the individual no longer derives a sense of identity from them.

Travis