Religion.

though i guess a lot of that sounds a bit like trying to convince you of the existance of the Divine, i assure you that is because i'm very, very stoned.

in fact it doesnt matter to me if you believe or not. not in the slightest. my ideas of god are my own, and no more or less reasonable than any other crackpot theory.

however the items i discussed involving history or world religion are based on my understanding of history and world religions based on both my formal education and my extracurricular reading on the subjects (which have been ongoing since back in the 6th or 7th grade, when i became fervently interested in learning about other religions)

i have many books on the subjects in question and various related topics, and one thing i've found is a number of inconsistancies in regards to various texts. many scriptures such as the qu'ran (the holy book of islam), the tanakh (essentially the jewish bible, consisting of the torah, the nevi'im, and the ketuvim...the torah is often given the most imporance, but the tanakh is the majority of the most important jewish scripture as i understand it, including the torah, which is only the five books of moses, as well as the rest of what the christians call the old testament), and pretty much every scripture is only really understood best when learned in its original language. translations almost invariably mess things up in terms of getting every little idea across....

and when languages are very different from each other, such as arabic and english, hebrew and english, sanskrit and english, then you lose a lot of meaning.

because of this, and because of the existance of many denominations, sects, and even cults in most of the worlds major religions, various authors may say various things about some religions that other people may contradict. all of what i've said is what i understand through reading books on comparative religions, translated scripture, and world history. i cannot claim all my "facts" are universally accurate. they are just things as i understand them based on my past education, both formal and informal.

my OPINIONS, on the other hand, are based on past experience and my personal reasoning and understanding of the things around me.

i apologize for not seperating them more thoroughly prior to this.

the simple fact remains that religion has existed for thousands of years, though.

jesus didn't invent religion, or the concept of god/higher power

but i'm NO expert. if you want to learn, dont expect us to provide you with all the answers. pick up some books.

i may not be an expert, but i know enough i have a leg to stand on saying the idea of god existed more than 2000 years ago. i have at least a little knowledge of the subject.

if you want a very basic starting point for learning about other faiths, other beliefs, other ideas of god and the universe, my recommendation would be World Religions From Ancient History to the Present...a general guide to the most basic principals of a number of the most historically influencial religious systems in the world. it covers a very wide range of belief systems. many are older than christianity, and very few of them directly involve jesus

read about things in a general, comprehensive way to get familiar with other ideas, and simple human history (there is no denying that religion is a huge part of human history)

if something particularly interests you after learning about it, look for more specific information about it, preferably material accepted by the religion in question if you really want to know what they tell their followers.

 

I bet about 50% of people that call themselves atheists are agnostic
Look it up

 

thx stinkfoot, that post wasnt pointless but sorry your first one was. I was looking for info not "look up old testament". Yah nesta I realized afterwards about jesus and hindui not corralating together. So that was my mistake. I guess the only reason I question religion a lot is because I think its dumb that so many people really are brainwashed. I bet 90% of people that go to church know the main stories, noah, water to wine...etc. I hate the fact that those people ALWAYS have to be right about everything and never let me put in my two cents about my ideas. As for sumerians, how do you explain they knew about planet x/planet nibiru? They say all the technology they had came from gods....nephilim could be these "gods". I have my views and you have your views. I dont get offensive about there being no god, I get offensive when everyone is so biased and wont take other options into consideration.

 

Well I don't exactly buy into biblical stories as being literal chronicles of history- I suspect they're meant to be taken metaphorically but who knows? I spent a few years being dragged to church myself and wasn't completely successful in sleeping through all the services so bits and pieces made it through my defenses and are lodged in the recesses of my brain as trivia. I know how personally many Christians take their beliefs and am not going to attack their beliefs or them for keeping that faith.

Perhaps my earlier post might have had some meaning had I furnished the references for timelines there as its purpose was NOT to try and convert you or make you believe but simply to inform you that the "god" concept had existed much longer than 2,000 years- even under a Judeo-Christian doctrine. Nesta and Relayer have given ample testament to other systems of belief predating that. I really didn't take the contributions here as anyone trying to prove to anyone that the beliefs are true- there are people who strongly believe in something and my personal set of ethics compels me to respect that belief and to be extraordinarily careful expressing any skepticism I may have with a particular faith because it's not my mission in life to dissuade anyone from a chosen path of belief.

My exposure to Christian beliefs includes an awareness that a central part of some denominations is a mission to convert others on the basis that all other life choices are paths to destruction and therefore evil. This can be a sticky point as I've encountered some persistent and aggressive individuals- one in particular, a co-worker who was a seventh day adventist and tried more than a few times to convert me. Polite requests to talk about other things had no effect; I had to be rude to the guy... but in general people who have a faith also tend to have a lot more class and are some of the genuinely nicest people I've met... and I must include the aggressive co-worker there... very nice guy. If all it takes is a sincere belief in something that looks, sounds, and smells like bullshit for people to conduct themselves with a little more class and civility then perhaps there's potential benefit to door-to-door missions of persuasive testimony.

I think the one objection here was the openly sneering attitude that some of your posts come off with in expressing your skepticism with existence of a God. Most people who value their faith would find it offensive. I don't follow any particular teaching and I find it a bit excessive. I appreciate that you took some effort in the last post to express the type of response you were looking for as opposed to scoffing at some of the considerable work being done to present an argument. My "pointless" post was in part a reaction to what I saw as it being a waste to dig for any details and I must concede that the assumption was incorrect on my part.

I had a brief reunion with some people from my past in the form of a lunch at a restaurant Saturday. I joined a family who had stopped in my town en route to a place I had grown up- the dad is the son of a now elderly couple who had taken me in as a foster child 30 years ago and these people are devout Christians. When our orders arrived, I remembered old house rules about table etiquette where no one eats until everyone has been served... and a blessing has been said. While I'm not a practicing Christian personally, I still showed respect for this family tradition and as the dad thanked God for the bounty and it nourish our bodies I thought of the trans fats and chemicals that God was about to "bless" us with. This little nugget I kept to myself and I ate my grilled chicken sandwich and relived the experience that used to be my family dinner so many years ago. As I sat at the table and was included in a lively discussion that included his four school age children I saw a family whose foundation was an unshakable faith. It was the intangible that made them the cohesive unit they are and provided a set of ethics that even showed in the behavior of the kids- the oldest being in high school. Who the hell am I to tell them that their system of beliefs is bull shit?

 

buddhist here

 

i think this is one of the most fair and rational statements you've made in this thread. most "religious" people that i've met here in the states actually know relatively little about their own faith. most "religious" people i know also leave their faith at their place of worship for most of life. there are exceptions of course, but at least in my exposure to people in my region (mostly christians and jews) most people only observe the holidays and whichever day of the week they choose to worship in a gathering, and do little in the way of reading scripture, musing on their faith and religion, praying, meditation, very little fasting (and usually not proper fasting. giving up candy bars, alcohol or sex for lent is NOT a fast - giving up food is)

on the other hand there are the overzealous super-christians who can't spend a waking minute without being preoccupied with telling you about their religion and inviting you to their church telling you what is or isn't a sin....

so on the whole, either their faith is shallow and relatively meaningless, and they simply go through the motions because they were raised to do so or because its simply something to do on a sunday (or whenever) or because church is a very social occasion for many people........OR they are really in your face and closed minded, and will listen to and accept NO line of reasoning other than their own, yet expect you to do otherwise and listen to their ideas and accept it. i find this frustrating.

on the point of simply going through the motions, even assuming that christianity on the whole is "right," then the rules laid down in the scripture is simply a set of guidelines. people get so hung up on what they aren't supposed to do that it's all they focus on. "so long as i dont steal or kill or sleep around and confess my sins, i wont go to hell" they look for the minimum they can do to receive gods acceptance. its like trying to get through a class with a C....just avoiding failure. its not that they want to be good people and worship god for the sake of spiritual growth....its that they want to go to heaven instead of hell. this is a stupid approach to spirituality in my view.

i agree, this bothers me as well. as for me, i'm usually willing to listen to most people's ideas if the topic comes up in conversation, but not if they're walking around looking for people to convert (mormons, jehova's witnesses, some of the cultish "nondenominational" superchurches, and so on)

i know little about the sumerians specifically, i simply know that there is a lot of information available about them and their religious ideas. i certainly know nothing about their understanding of astronomy. as for the claim that their technology came from the gods, it wouldnt be any more outlandish than the claim that god made humans from soil or clay (a very common creation myth around the world), that the qur'an was literally revealed directly to muhammad, word for word in arabic, by the angel gabriel, that prometheus gave fire to humans, or any number of other myths and ideas.

many religions have myths like these which dont sound rational to a modern, scientifically minded individual. its important to remember that many such myths are very similar to myths in other cultures, and seem to be a common theme among various peoples. these cultures often exist for hundreds or thousands of years, and the myths change bit by bit....

most likely, if the sumerians claimed much of their technology was given to them by the gods, it was simply an origin myth, essentially made up to explain how things got to be the way they are.....

but i dont know about this claim, really, and really have little in the way of an opinion on it. i doubt the gods actually gave them tools and building techniques and such, but i could be wrong. in my understanding of things, the gods work in far more mysterious ways, and deal mostly with the welfare of creation as a whole and the spiritual nature of things. it is human conceit to think we are significantly better than any other creature based on apparently more complex manners of thinking, and it is human conceit to think that of all of creation we are obviously favored and loved and the most important part. but this is just my opinion. as i understand it, most of the gods have no more love for a human than a deer or a tree or a rock, and simply keep nature running in the proper fashion....of course i do believe there may be specific deities associated with specific things or concepts....and there may be some gods who do care for us and intervene somewhat....but i find it hard to believe they would meddle to the point of GIVING us fire or technology or astronomical information or anything else....we still must live and die, suffer and enjoy life. all the good and bad are interconnected and ultimately depend on each other for existance.

nonexistance is free of good and evil, free of joy and strife....to exist is to both enjoy some good things and suffer some bad things, and i can't see a god trying to change this. it is a natural and necessary balance, in a way.

 

well even the bible mentions nephilim...very interesting to look at though. Planet Nibiru catches my imagine a lot...

 

if thats the case, i would like to know why, as well as evidence that various religious texts mention it (in the case of the bible, i'd like information as to book, chapter, and verse....other scriptures or myths i'd like at least comparable information regarding it....

i would like to know more about this.

when i was a young child i heard often from teachers about "planet x," an extra "planet" that existed at the outermost regions of our solar system (not that unlikely, really)

but far, far more recently even pluto has been questioned in regards to its planet status....the idea of a small celestial body orbiting the sun yet SO far away from it is odd....unlikely and improbable that its a planet, even if its entirely possible that it exist.....VERY unlikely life would exist there, if thats the idea.

anyway, i know next to nothing about it and would like to know more if you have any sources.

 

it orbits another body and accidently orbits our sun as well, it orbits clockwise instead of counter clockwise like other planets and takes 3600 years to do a complete orbit.

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=67 - link to book, chapter, verse

 

i am one with the jedi

 

Religion Sucks ! I mean any religion, From Christianity to Islam, More people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason in the history of Humanity. Weather it be monotheism or paganism, people have fought wars in the names of thier gods to justify thier crimes against humanity and thier hunger for territory and power. So I must be athiest then right? WRONG! I have a very strong bond with my creator and the source from witch all things originate (God). But when humanity tries to define God within the context of our own understanding, religion is born and conflict is sure to arise. Out of religion flows hatered, bigitry and condemnation towards anyone who doesn't hold to the same views as established in the "statement of faith". I choose to walk after my creator as I feel led by the Spirit to do so. I seek the wisdom of those who have come before me weather it be Buddah, Confucious, Jesus, Ghandi, Mother Theresa or anyone else who's lives reflected the Love and Wisdom of the Creator. It is our challenge to grow in our spirituality and advance in our humanity from age to age and religion stunts that growth. As this age comes to a close I have to wonder just how far we have come. Is humanity failing? In a world that is consumed with war, poverty and hatered how will love and compasion continue to shine through the darkness? What kind of world will my grandchildren see when the walk outside thier doors every morning? Whatever it looks like I pray to God Almighty that it will not look like Religion.

 

So I believe religion is a primitive form of science. Now that science has been evolving and now we pretty much can explain mostly everything (except a lot of things in space and atoms). I do think every person should take the morals and ethical ideas from certain religions and use them to make yourself a decent human being.

I do believe in God. I am God. You are God. Every person has their own universe, their own world. Each person makes the choices that will decide their fate in the long run. I do not believe in God, the old man with a beard chillin in the sky. Thats just laughable now.

My religion, do the right thing, don't hurt anyone, enjoy every second.

 

why would someone be worrying about who created god when you dont even know who created humans... and really the only thing to answer the second question that makes sense to me is God. I believe we are created from Image own image.. and he loved us so much he created this world for us, and there is a heaven... i mean really what else can you believe without feeling worthless

 

So you believe in a God just because your too scared of feeling worthless?

I'd prefer to believe in the truth and have no hope than believe in a bs religion just to live in false hope.

 

Ha, but we both know well WHO it is to blame that the earth is getting dilapidated! And definitely, it is not He who's The Maintainer.

Right, the relativity theory in its modern development admits, that the Universe HAD the beginning. And that it HAS boundaries. What a breakthrough, eh?

And who gave you all those figures like 50 mln of years? Is it not the scientists? But they admit their methods are often terribly inaccurate.
Yeah, man, we don't wanna die forever, this is the key. And why don't we, if it is "only natural"?
Of course, all these battles of opinions take place in our minds firstly and lastly. But the most important questions, which also help to find the right answer, are these:
Does your Truth make you feel happy deep down inside?
Can it bring comfort to others? Or can you only disappoint others with it?
Is your Truth helping you to become a loving, peaceful, humble person?

You know there's a lot of ideas, all of them look like "truth", but they make people bitter and desperate and hating life, which they, however, are loth to loose. So, even if these 60-80 years of life are all we have, why live them in such miserable contradiction of mind and heart? What's the use of a "truth" that makes you feel miserable? Why disappoint others in this world, which is disappointing in itself? Ha-ha, these questions work better than any scientific "truth" and "logical arguments" like "who created God" stuff. Right?

Definitely, our Maker can see better than this; gave us freedom to choose, but left enough evidence of Himself for those willing to accept it. I love it when the Bible says God is in control and he will turn this Earth into a good place with good people. So there will be no need to go "to heaven" or to some other place out of here, in order to be happy. I can see it even now how his Truth from the Bible turns people into good ones, and their lives into happy lives.

With Christian love,
Kostya

 

well so what did you mean by the "regeneration force" you were talking about earlier?
or was it just some bullshit that came on the spot like that?

coz now you seem to have realised there's no such a thing...

Honestly now just because we have no clue where our "reality" came from doesnt mean we have to invent some absurd theroy about gods, angels, devils, ghosts ,spirits and all the rest of the bullshit you believe in to justify it...

 

The universe is constantly expanding. There is no finite end to it which makes sence because the dark matter that exsists in the space outside of the universe would ultimately kill you.

The universe doesn't last forever. Me and the Council of The Garden of Light have created a new term called the Veij. The Veij is the space that all universes mingle in. The Veij is the eternal realm that all thoughts and ideas are created.

Come on!

Things answered by science: 932849792376935927479268592385692384628365
Things answered by religion: 0

Its clear what a smart person should believe in.

 

Is it clear what a smart person should believe in, Squilla? Really? Or is it clear which extreme a smart person, in your opinion, should subscribe to? Im sorry but I can not quite understand how what you just said is any different than what a fundamental Christian says to get you to join the church, save for the words being painted with a different colour.
And so the universe is constantly expanding, ok that is not terribly difficult to understand. But exactly how long will this universe continue to expand? Is it not right, by your very own scientic 'laws' to conclude that eventually the universe will begin to retract? Just a thought because I have no idea.

 

The Big Bang Theory came from the Chruch. Science can tell what happened 0.00001 secs or so after but not before. An object at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an external force. St. Thomas Aquaintis (sp?) presented "The first mover theory" in which God was indeed that outside force. As it stands science is limited by the tools it uses and there are many hypothesis that require that next jump (or many more) in technology to become theory.

Look at people who "ghost hunt" many would call them nuts but many, on the other hand, support them. The relative point being; is it that they do not exsist? or is it that current technology cannot confirm they exsist? Mankind has always been limited by their senses even the ones scientifically augmented.

The universe is set to go 3 ways. 1) Expand eternally until everything burns out and freezes. 2) Eventually contract 3) Equalibrium.

So I guess a smart person would believe in possibilities.

 

I know I haven't proved any of this big bang/ big crunch stuff but many scientists out there have and they understand why it will eventually collapse on itself. I personally believe that the universe will keep expanding and eventually the heat between objects will become so sparce that the space will get colder resulting in the death of all planets. The universe will be filled with black holes until all the matter is gone. This makes complete sense because its just like a recycling process.

Its good what I just said resembles a christian point of view for thats the only religion that basically explains the things people should do and not do to become a good person and enter God's eternal love.
A smart person should not believe in religion. Thats a fact.